End Times Views Part 1

In this first part of a series designed to help us understand different End Times views—particularly of the Millennial Kingdom—Dan Jarms and John Gardner discuss the essentials of the End Times, emphasizing the importance of a high view of Scripture and non-negotiable beliefs. They highlight the necessity of Christ's return, the reality of judgment and eternal consequences, and the promise of a bodily resurrection and a new heavens and new earth. They stress the importance of evangelism, driven by the belief in a real hell and a real heaven. The conversation underscores the unity of believers in these core tenets, despite differing views on the millennium. They conclude by encouraging active faith and social engagement until Jesus' return.

• Automated Transcription

• Dan Jarms 0:00
  Today on faith matters, John Gardner is going to be in the studio with me, and we're going to talk about the essentials of the End Times.
  
  Dan Jarms 0:13
  I'm Dan jarms, and you're listening to faith matters, a podcast to help update you on matters of faith, Bible, church, as well as equip you in matters of the Christian faith.
  
  Dan Jarms 0:33
  Today I have John Gardner in with me. Hey John,
  
  John Gardner 0:35
  Hey Dan,
  
  Dan Jarms 0:36
  and we're gonna follow up on our series on the second coming of Christ, and really maybe broaden it out to what we might call end times. And there's been some questions sent in. We're really grateful for those things, like, what do the various people who have different views? Where do they get their views from? Amillennial, post millennial, pre millennial? If you're brand new to this world, word millennial. We're not gonna even talk about it today, but we need to lay some foundation before we get to some of those things. As well as we've had conversations about rapture, pre tribulational, mid tribulational, post tribulational, etc, questions about that. And again, we're gonna get to those. But John and I thought it would be really important to start with the non negotiables that everybody's been clear about. Yeah,
  
  John Gardner 1:27
  I think before, before we start discussing areas where there's disagreement within Orthodox Christianity, I do think it's good to say what are the things we all agree on. Let's remind ourselves which team we're on. And then, like you said, that that helps us lay a foundation for why we arrive at some of the specific positions that we have.
  
  Dan Jarms 1:51
  Yeah. And I think one of the things to ask is, you know, when we start is what, what is primary? So as you start thinking of what's primary, what do people mean when they mean Orthodox Christianity? What's what's primary? What? How do you think of that in
  
  John Gardner 2:06
  your mind? One thing that I think most people who read the Bible, whether they're consider themselves theologians or not, I think anybody, even on your first time reading through the Bible, there's some things that are gonna be more clear and easier to understand some things are less clear and take a little more work to interpret. And I think just as a basic principle of interpreting scripture, we want to start with the things that are most clear and assume that those are the more important things, and then we reason from the most clear to help us understand the things that are less clear. So the primary doctrines are generally the things that should stand out the most as you're reading the Bible.
  
  Dan Jarms 2:49
  And historically, that's been true. There has been identification, not only for what gets the most content in the Scripture, but then the most clarity that comes back over and over again. So that's a way to start thinking about how to triage primary and secondary. Any other thoughts. There's
  
  John Gardner 3:09
  lots of really big words that we could use, but I think for now, you don't have to know all the big words to understand what God wants us to learn from this word.
  
  Dan Jarms 3:19
  Yeah, I think another one that's primary that has been agreed on for the 2000 years is a really high view of Scripture. This is God's word. He's revealed Himself to us what he has wanted us to know that's clear to us. He made it clear to us is authoritative. And there's a verse even about it in Deuteronomy, 2929 it says, The secret things belong to the Lord, but those things that he's revealed to us belong to us and to our children, so that we might obey them. So there are some times, especially in prophetic writing, where God says, I'm going to show you this, Daniel, but now close it up, because I don't really want everybody to know this yet. So God has held some mysteries on purpose from us, but those things that are clear, so high view of Scripture and a high view of what's clear is is really important. And by high view we mean what the Bible says is the way it is and whether we can understand it or not another story. A lot of times the problem's us, but sometimes God hasn't shown us everything, but high view of Scripture is is a really important orthodox truth, yeah,
  
  John Gardner 4:27
  and that that's where, you know, the reformers, that's where they started, sola scriptura, that the Bible is our sole source of doctrine and truth. And I think maybe as our first non negotiable when it comes to the end times is we want our view to come from Scripture and not to look to Scripture to confirm something we might believe or hope to be true. Yeah,
  
  Dan Jarms 4:51
  and it's, it's a it's a wise admonition. Throughout the history of the church, people have tried to look at what's. Going on in events in the world, and then tried to look to Scripture to match those events. And they don't realize it, but they're often changing the meaning of Scripture, or they're interpreting it based on what they see, instead of, instead of saying, what does the Scripture say? And how does that apply? And that that that backward run has has distracted many people over the history of the church. Yeah, let's, let's hit some of these non negotiables. I'll start with with the phrase that was used in the first three major creeds, the Apostles Creed, the Nicene Creed, the Athanasian Creed, all almost directly. Quote a section out of Acts chapter 10, and talking about the end times is part of the gospel. And Peter is preaching to the Gentiles. It's the first time Gentiles are getting a sermon. And listen, listen to what he said, and we are witnesses of all that he Jesus did, both in the country of the Jews and in Jerusalem. They put him to death by hanging Him on a tree, but God raised Him up on the third day and made him to appear. So there's the fundamental core of the salvation doctrines. Christ died, according to Scripture, Christ was raised according to the scripture, and it was historical event. It's not all the people and made him to appear, not to all the people, but to us, who had been chosen by God as witnesses, who ate and drank with him after he rose from the dead, there's proof of the resurrection of Jesus, and He commanded us to preach to the people and to testify that he is the one appointed by God to be judge of the living and the dead. And that phrase, to be judge of the living and dead talks about what he is going to come to do, acts 17. Backs it up. And so then it says this to him, all the prophets bear witness that everyone who believes in in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name. The lines in all three of those creeds that were the earliest Christian summary of apostolic teaching borrow that phrase, he is to come to judge the living and the dead. So Jesus is coming and he is going to judge the living and the dead. That's a non negotiable for us,
  
  John Gardner 7:20
  obviously, the the idea that Christ is coming back, I say obviously, there have been Christians, and are Christians who who would not look forward to a future return of Christ. So we would say that is non negotiable. Scriptures really clear that that's going to happen, and that when he comes, that there will be judgment. And so that kind of leads to the next non negotiable, which is the reality that there is a judge, there will be judgment, there will be eternal consequences for sin and eternal rewards for those who have placed their faith in Christ.
  
  Dan Jarms 7:56
  Yeah, I think of two Keystone three Keystone texts to that one was announced in the Old Testament. In Daniel chapter 12, there is a promise of a resurrection, some to righteousness and reward and blessing and some to everlasting contempt. So Daniel has it. Matthew 25 has a when the when the King comes in his glory to judge. And then there is a dividing between the godly and the ungodly. And then revelation 20 at the end is the great white throne judgment. So Scriptures speak of these things, of a resurrection to judgment. Yeah,
  
  John Gardner 8:33
  it has become really popular in the last century or so to argue that a loving God would not send people to hell, that there wouldn't be a real hell. And there's an argument out there that the Bible doesn't use the word hell, but the Bible uses the words eternal torment and the worm who won't die, and a lake of fire for all eternity. So whether you use the word hell or not, that does not sound like a pleasant destination, right?
  
  Dan Jarms 9:05
  Especially Daniel's language, that they're resurrected. The The wicked are resurrected to everlasting contempt. That's not a going out of existence. That's, that's an ongoing consistent, you know, there's, there's an existence to be held under contempt by God. And we don't want to just say yes, it's true. We we do agree with that. That's a gut punch. It probes our compassion. When I realize that God is sending Jesus, the father sending the son to judge. I'm excited about the reward, and right now, I dread for every soul that's going to have to face that everlasting contempt. We evangelize, and God wants us to evangelize, because God is compassionate, and he is offering a way of escape for that judgment that's. What Peter is preaching to the Gentiles, that everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins through his name. So we never want to end with just hell is real. Deal with it, right? When we hear that, we immediately say, then I really need to tell as many people as I can, yeah,
  
  John Gardner 10:17
  well, and that's why, you know, evangelism is a big part of our belief about the end times, because if, if we believe that there's a real hell and a real judgment coming that should motivate us to share what, what I would see as the next non negotiable, that there is also a real heaven and a real way out of the consequences of our sin that the Lord has provided, yeah, there will be a resurrection of believers in the future that's attested to multiple times.
  
  Dan Jarms 10:50
  Daniel 12, First Corinthians. 15 is the most glorious section on the resurrection, and it's that hope that the perishable puts on the imperishable meaning, sinless, deathless existence in fellowship with God, reigning with Him, that that is such a glorious hope for us. So there's reality of that. And first, Corinthians 15 was written because some were denying a resurrection, and some were saying, Yeah, you can be regenerated. That's enough, but there's no resurrection. You can have life with God now, but when you die, that's it. No there's a real bodily resurrection, and all the Councils creeds have affirmed the essential nature of that for Orthodox faith. So resurrection and then talk about the the great end that is part of that, non negotiable.
  
  John Gardner 11:46
  Yeah, and Scripture talks about there being a new heavens and a new earth. We see that, especially towards the end of Revelation. But it's, it's mentioned other other places that there is a future reality where Christ is is reigning, and we believe that the new heaven and new earth are a real, physical place where we will be with the Lord forever and ever.
  
  Dan Jarms 12:14
  Yes, it is one of the consistent themes that resurrection is a resurrection body, resurrection to eternal life, there will be a bodily existence. I think a very common contemporary belief about life after death is some sort of immaterial, joyful light existence where you kind of get to do whatever you want. And since most people don't have a biblical framework, they're not thinking about a new heavens and a new earth. So in contemporary terms, that's one thing we really have to offer. But that's always been a historic part of the church's belief is we're going to live in real bodies. We're going to see Jesus in a real body. There's going to be a real city, real nations. It's an exciting finish to the end of the Bible story.
  
  John Gardner 13:05
  Yeah, and that's not just a contemporary view. A lot of those creed you mentioned earlier were written in response to, you know, in the third and fourth centuries, it was really common also to believe that the body was wicked and the spirit was good, and the body is going to burn up, and the Spirit's going to be what's eternal. And that's why, you know, the Nicene Creed and the Apostles Creed both talk about, we believe in the resurrection of the body. Yes, because that is something that we, with the Church Fathers, believe is, is clear from scripture that the resurrection is is talking about a bodily resurrection, because that's how Jesus was raised. He was raised in the same body that he had when he died, and they said our resurrection is going to be like his.
  
  Dan Jarms 13:55
  Which leads to this the most important question, John. So, how does a person get to the new heavens and the new earth? If there are realities coming, how do we get there?
  
  John Gardner 14:08
  Yeah, that is the big question. If all of these things we've mentioned before are true and and they are, then we affirm with all Orthodox Christians throughout history and and people that have different views of the End Times today, we agree that there's one way that people are saved. They are saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ and believing the Gospel and proclaiming Jesus Christ as Lord and and that is something as as we get into on the next podcast, talking about some areas where, where people have some different ideas about the end times. That is, that is the great unifier of of God's people, is belief in the gospel and and we share that with people who we don't share every doctrinal belief.
  
  Dan Jarms 14:57
  Yes, I think of one of the you. Clear places. Jesus is standing in front of Lazarus his tomb. And Mary and Martha are grieving because Jesus let their brother die. They're a little miffed at him. And Jesus, you know, doing a miracle, says to Martha, because Martha says, I know that that he will rise again in the resurrection on the last day. So there was a belief in the end times that there would be a resurrection. So it's the Daniel 12 quote. Jesus said to her, I am the resurrection and the life. Whoever believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live? So there, Jesus talks about, you're going to die, but there's actually going to be a life, and everyone who lives and believes in me shall never die. Do you believe this? She said to him, Yes, Lord, I believe that you are the Christ, the Son of God who is coming into the world. So that first coming was to announce the news, to create the sacrifice, the resurrection, to announce the news that a saving God has come, and when He comes again, He is going to come bring life to his people. There's no other way to get to the new heavens and the new earth apart from faith in Jesus and trusting in Him alone, right?
  
  John Gardner 16:16
  And there is this idea out there that some folks in more of our doctrinal camp might believe that we're going back to a sacrificial way that Jews are saved,
  
  Dan Jarms 16:30
  right? We'll get into it when we get to criticisms or beliefs about the various views. But whatever's happening in the future, there is debate among theologians in our streams, not necessarily in other streams, but our streams. At how literal Ezekiel 40 through 48 is, with literal with sacrifices, the Messiah being there and so on. Nobody believes that there's going to be a future sacrifice that is efficacious, meaning that it would earn you points with God or get you forgiveness, because there was never an Old Testament sacrifice that got you forgiveness and earned a place with God. That's abundantly clear in both if you want to go to Hebrews, which our friends who point out that fault of ours, so to speak, it is abundantly clear in Hebrews that the sacrifices never worked, but it doesn't mean that they weren't an honest offering to God, right? Nobody believes
  
  John Gardner 17:31
  Abraham believed God's promise, and it was kind of demons righteousness. That's all that
  
  Dan Jarms 17:36
  the church has ever believed, and that's, that's what all of the that's what all of the major views would have in common. We all believe there's only one way to salvation, and that's really the ultimate unity. So when I think about getting along with my amillennial post millennial, other versions of millennial friends who are pastors and church members, we hold to a gospel centrality, and it's sometimes hard to differentiate what's primary and secondary, because all truth is truth. So we're trying to figure out what that truth is, but when it becomes difficult to determine how that truth pans out, the things that are clear are what unite us, and that's been true since the Apostles Creed, yeah. And
  
  John Gardner 18:24
  that kind of leads to the last kind of non negotiable on our list is, what should we be doing until Jesus comes back?
  
  Dan Jarms 18:31
  Right? And to me, that's that's really what matters, because we can look at look ahead. In my heart, in this is that we can look ahead. There are all kinds of things to be excited about and look forward to with Jesus ruling, the end of sin, the end of idolatry, the end of the corruption in the world. I am excited about all of that. All I can be is excited about it, because I can't really do anything about any of those. But Jesus has told me what I can do, and I think it's six different times, three times in the Olivet Discourse, one in Luke 12, which we looked at as a church, where Jesus says, Be dressed and ready for action. Have your lamps lit. Anticipate the return of the Son of Man by being faithful, entrusting him and faithful in your work, we can all do that. I sat at lunch with my amillennial friend two or three weeks ago, telling him about my summer studies in Premillennialism, and we looked at each other and we said, we both agree that Jesus could come back at any time, because the texts tell us, Jesus tells us I could come back at any time. So be ready. So we can do that. We can we can get ready. We have the same job to do. My Amalek friend and I have the same job to do. Preach the gospel, build up the saints, evangelize, be faithful. Do what good we can in the world. We all have the same job,
  
  John Gardner 20:00
  right? Yeah, being being ready, having lamps, doesn't mean we just sit around waiting for Jesus. We have things like we are waiting, but we we are doing things while we are accomplishing the Great Commission. We are going out to the nations to proclaim Christ. We are discipling believers within the church. We are working to be good citizens in our communities. We are working to help the poor and all the other parts of the mission of the church are things that regardless of your views on the millennium, if you don't think you should be doing those things, you're wrong,
  
  Dan Jarms 20:44
  right? And regardless of your view on the millennium, doesn't mean that you have a passive role. We are not building little monasteries where we're retreating to have prayer vigils and never interacting in the world or never doing good in the world for 2000 years, the people who have made the most social change in the world for the better, like ending the slave trade or helping the poor, reforming social institutions to help the mentally ill, they Were all believers who are excited about Christ's return because they paid attention to Matthew 25 which talks about at my return, I'm going to judge whether you help the poor or not. There's a lot of good we can do in the world. There's a lot and believers can make real difference in this world. We don't know when Jesus is going to come back. What if he doesn't come back for another 1000 years? Are we really going to detach from the social evils of the world and say, Well, too bad the world's just going to hell in a handbasket. We don't have to be passive. We don't have to be resigned. We can actually make real, active change. We should
  
  John Gardner 21:57
  be super optimistic about the ability for God's people to do good in the world until Jesus comes back, and we should be we should be actively pursuing those goals. Yes,
  
  Dan Jarms 22:07
  so thanks, John, that that's a helpful thought. Next time we're going to start answering some of those questions, what are some of the major views? And we're going to try to honestly represent those viewpoints, but recognizing that all who hold these core tenets, we're brothers and sisters, and we're gonna be in heaven, and one of us is gonna look at the other and say, You were the one that got this wrong, or I was the one that got this wrong. I
  
  John Gardner 22:35
  think we're all gonna look at each other and say it's better than we thought it would be. It's
  
  Dan Jarms 22:40
  this is not how I thought this would go. We're all going to say that amen to the glory of God and the grace of the Lord Jesus.

Dan Jarms

Dr. Dan Jarms is teaching pastor and team leader at Faith Bible Church in Spokane Washington, as well as associate dean at The Master's Seminary in Spokane. He has been married for over 30 years to Linda, and has three adult children. He earned his B.A. in English at the Master’s College, B.Ed. at Eastern Washington University, M.Div and D.Min in Expository Preaching at The Master’s Seminary. His other interests include NCAA basketball, woodworking, and art.

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John Gardner

John is the pastor over Music Ministry at Faith Bible Church. He is a coffee aficionado who loves most kinds of music, but has a particular fondness for big band (especially when he's playing trumpet in the band). He and his wife, Laurie, have 3 kids who enjoy reading, hiking, and the symphony.

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