End Times Views Part 2

Dan Jarms and John Gardner discuss different end times views, focusing on the amillennial and postmillennial views. These different views come from different interpretations of Revelation 20:1-6, which describes a thousand year period of peace and Jesus' return. Postmillennialists envision a golden age of Christian rule before Jesus' return while amillennialists see the Millennium as a long, ongoing period of gospel spread, that takes place between Christ's first and second coming—in other words, that we are currently living in the "millennium". They also discuss the continuity of promises from the Old Testament to the New Testament, emphasizing that these views are interpretive differences within the Church and not barriers to fellowship or membership at Faith.

• Automated Transcription

• Dan Jarms 0:00
  Today on faith matters, I have John Gardner back in the studio with me, and we are talking about end times. This time, we are looking at End Times systems.
  
  Dan Jarms 0:15
  I'm Dan jarms, and you're listening to faith matters, a podcast to help update you on matters of faith, Bible, church, as well as equip you in matters of the Christian faith.
  
  Dan Jarms 0:34
  Well, we are back in the studio talking about end times. I have John Gardner with me. Hey John,
  
  John Gardner 0:39
  hello again.
  
  Dan Jarms 0:40
  We are going to talk through some things today that I think a lot of Christians are confused about, and to be perfectly honest, sometimes so are pastors. It can be challenging, but John, let's try to come up with some summaries. Here's why we started this. We had a question from one of our members after the end time series, what do our brothers who hold different views than we do post millennial and all millennial we are pre millennial. Where do they get their stance? So that's that's what generated that. What's the difference? Where do they get their scriptural stance? So let's just start talking about, what do we mean by a millennium? Where's the core text for that, when we start with that,
  
  John Gardner 1:22
  yeah, it's a great question. I was glad that Todd had asked that, because it does point out one of the biggest differences between different flavors of Christianity, the the key text for this debate comes from Revelation, chapter 20, verses one through six, which is a section Dan preached on recently. Did you want to read that?
  
  Dan Jarms 1:47
  I do revelation 20 verse one says, Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven holding in his hand the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain, and he seized the dragon, that ancient serpent who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for 1000 years and threw him into the pit and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he might not deceive the nations any longer, until the 1000 years were ended. After that, he must be released for a little while. Then I saw thrones, and seated on them were those to whom the authority to judge was committed. Also, I saw souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the Word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or on their hands. These were all events that happened earlier in Revelation. They came to life and reigned with Christ for 1000 years. The rest of the dead did not come to life until the 1000 years were ended. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy. Is the one who shares in the first resurrection over such the second death has no power. But they will be priests of God and of Christ, and they will reign with him for 1000 years.
  
  John Gardner 2:58
  Yeah. So it's, it's a, it's a great, encouraging text from scripture, and it is one that has been hotly debated, really, for the entire 2000 years since it was written and and that's where these words, post millennial, amillennial, pre millennial, come from. There are different ways of looking at that text, and when it talks about 1000 years, what? What does that mean? And when does it happen? And does Jesus come before or after those events that are described in those six verses? So that's that's kind of the core issue that that comes up when talking about millennial views. So if we
  
  Dan Jarms 3:36
  were to try to just summarize it as simple as possible, the premillennial view, Jesus comes back before the 1000 years. The amillennial view is that the 1000 years is a generally long period of time. Jesus comes back at the end of the long period of time. The Post millennial view has a golden age, 1000 years, a long period of time with ever increasing growth in which Jesus comes back to finally take over. What is his
  
  John Gardner 4:09
  Yeah, and one of the things we want to do in this podcast is to try to accurately flesh out as best we can those different views from what is the official position of faith, Bible, church, the post millennial, the amillennial view, in a way that somebody who holds those views would be able to say, Yeah, that's what I believe. I don't want to confuse the issue, but I think that it's helpful for us to recognize that these are difficult, interpretive and hermeneutic issues that the people who love the Bible have have not always agreed on, yeah, so, Dan, you mentioned the post millennial view as having a golden age. I think it's if I were going to kind of flesh that out a little bit. They, they look at the Millennium as being something that is, is yet future, which we would agree with them about that. But. And they believe that the church is going to be triumphant, that the Great Commission will be fulfilled to an extent that at some point before Jesus comes back, most people on earth will be believers, and that that's going to result in an era of peace and prosperity, and that the rulers of the nations will be Christians ruling justly and with laws that reflect God's laws. And that that golden age is what they would say, is talked about in Revelation 20 that that hasn't happened yet, but there's this long golden age of Christians ruling on the earth, and then Jesus comes back, yep, yep,
  
  Dan Jarms 5:45
  yeah, that. I think that's how they would describe that. And then, of course, we didn't say this earlier, but within any of those three positions, there is a spectrum of sub positions. So some post millennialists would say that age has begun. We're just beginning to see it. Some would say it's there's a future starting point. My church history in the summer, with the Puritans, they all saw it as coming in rapidly, at suddenly, at some near point of the future. Today, you could have anything between. It's starting already to we're waiting for the Golden Age, and that's true about the others. I just want to say that because you'll know people, or you are a person who's got some nuanced difference in there, right?
  
  John Gardner 6:33
  Yeah, nothing, nothing we say is going to be broadly representative of everybody, of everyone, okay? But even within that, the term amillennialism, really, until the last 100 or 200 years, was just considered a part of post millennialism. The main difference is that amillennialism is going to be looking at the Millennium not as something that's a future golden age, but as something that we're in right now. So the name can be a little bit misleading. We tend to think of the prefix, ah, as meaning, no. They're not saying there's no 1000 years, because they believe that revelation 21 through six is is part of God's Word. So they were going to say it's not a literal 1000 years. It's a long period of time that's basically it's got to be more than 1000 years, because it started when, Christ descended, and we're still in it, so it's just this indeterminate length long time, but that during that age, that is the time when the gospel is going forward to all the nations, and that that that's happening right now, and rather than a time of perfect fulfillment of those things, they believe that there's going to be a combination of gospel victory and suffering for the sake of the gospel that is always going to be going on until Christ returns. Right?
  
  Dan Jarms 7:51
  Yeah, I believe that summarizes it really well for the overall picture. Yeah. Dan,
  
  John Gardner 7:57
  what are some if we go back to postmillennialism, what what are some texts for that are going to lead a post millennial theologian to to the idea that there's going to be this golden age. Where does that come from in the
  
  Dan Jarms 8:09
  Bible? Yeah, one of the surprising texts for everybody talking about the end times is in the series of parables from Jesus. So I'm going to turn to Matthew 13, and one of the repeated themes in the famous parables is the coming in judgment. And one of the parables has the angels coming and reaping. And one of the key texts that our post millennial brothers would use is in Matthew 1331 it's the parable the mustard seed in the kingdom, and says this. And he put another parable before them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is like a grain of mustard seed that a man took and sowed in his field. It is the smallest of all seeds, but when it has grown, it is larger than all the garden plants and becomes a tree, so that the birds of the air come and make nests in its branches. And he tells another similar parable, the kingdom of heaven is like the leaven that a woman took and hid in the in three measures of flour till it is all leavened. So the post millennialist is immensely optimistic about the progress of the gospel and its infusion into every part of life.
  
  John Gardner 9:16
  Yeah, I think most of the conversations I've had with post millennialists That theme of optimism is, is what keeps coming up, and so that, I think a lot of them would say it's not so much about having a specific text, so much as they look at all of Scripture as as depicting something where God's people are going to be victorious. And ultimately, in everything that Christ commanded the church to do, not just taking the gospel to all nations, to have a representative number of people, but like the Great Commission, is going to be fulfilled utterly, to the point where nearly everyone is a believer. They are going to see things like those parables as. Because, you know, we read that parable and say, Yeah, we believe as well that the kingdom is going to grow. But they're going to say it's going to keep growing and keep growing and keep growing until it's covering the
  
  Dan Jarms 10:09
  whole world. Yeah, and and in arts, culture, politics, economics, every, every aspect of life and national life, is that idea, yeah, yeah. They
  
  John Gardner 10:21
  like to say they're the optimist. It sounds it sounds really great,
  
  Dan Jarms 10:24
  yeah. So with that, there is another issue that we talk about when we think of end times, and that's the view of the whole scope of the Bible. So I think John and I starting with Revelation 20 to get our names a good post. Millennials would say, Yeah, but you don't really start there. Really you start in the Old Testament. You start at the beginning of Scripture. You start with God's covenant promises. And so we should talk about this issue of continuity. We all know we have something called an Old Testament and a New Testament. It's based on old covenant and new covenant. And the issue is what continues from the Old Covenant to the New Covenant and the post millennial view would see one people of God spreading throughout the world, that the promises made to the people of God, Israel in the Old Testament become the promises that the people of God in the New Testament inherit. So another way to say that is the church is now the inheritor of those promises, and that could lead some people to say Israel no longer exists. It's just the church, but it is this continuity of promises. So in interpreting we're trying to decide when there is a literal promise to Judah and Israel or Jerusalem. Is that a promise to those specific nations, that those countries, that nation of Israel, those cities, is that a literal promise there? And very often, that is viewed as a figurative promise for the people of God, and so they would see a continuity from Israel as the people of God to the church as the people of God, without really a view of Israel coming back into the picture. And it matters when you're reading prophecies in Isaiah, like when we sing with Handel, you know. And at Christmas time, Wonderful Counselor, Prince of Peace, Everlasting Father. And then we say the increase of His government. There is no end. Is is that after Jesus returns in the millennium? Or is that now that's, that's the question of interpretation. How do we see those things unfold as we get to Revelation, for instance, yeah,
  
  John Gardner 12:43
  well, and I think that's a good opportunity now to kind of transition to the amillennial view. There's, there's some overlap between amillennial and post millennial in that they're both going to see the return of Christ as being a single event. When, when Christ comes back, he he comes and then the final judgment is right then and then the eternal state. So there's, there's some overlap. There one, one of the big distinctions for the amillennial position that puts them in a separate camp from the post millennials and the pre millennialists, is the idea of the millennium being now comes largely from their interpretation of verse two and that revelation 20, passage where it talks about Satan will be bound and so the amillennialist, they like to look back at things that Jesus said in Mark three and Matthew 12, where he talks about plundering the house of the strong man, and the strong man has to be bound to plunder his house. So a non millennialist is connecting those two passages and saying that Satan is that strong man, and that previously to the binding of Satan, the gospel was not going out to all nations, but that Christ's victory over death on the cross is what bound Satan and prevented him from deceiving the nations. Now they would say with post millennials that Satan is not powerless during this time, but that he is unable to prevent the spread of the gospel. So yeah,
  
  Dan Jarms 14:21
  yeah, they go to Matthew 1618, where, after Peter's confession, he says, Upon this rock, I will build my church, and the gates of hell will not be able to prevail. So see it's going to steadily progress. Satan's gates will be kicked down, and the gospel will progress across it, whereas pre millennials will agree with that, but in a different way, by purely the spread of the gospel, not so much by the overcoming of governmental influence, right? Yeah,
  
  John Gardner 14:52
  yeah. So amillennialists and premillennialists are both going to agree together that during this age, whether. It's the Millennium or not, the church is taking the gospel to the nations. There's a lot of emphasis on evangelism, but also recognition that those efforts are not, not always successful, and both amillennialists and pre millennialists Look for the return of Christ to come at any moment, and that, yeah, there's a tribulation. Yeah,
  
  Dan Jarms 15:24
  the doctrine of of imminency is what premillennialists called the Jesus could return at any moment. The post millennialists would say, well, that applied to the destruction of Jerusalem, but it doesn't apply now, so it's going to take a very long time. You shouldn't look for it in any minute. The amillennialist and premillennialist both agree that it could happen at any moment, and how much of the Tribulation happens before that is where the debate happens for both amillennialists and premillennialists within those camps. How much trouble are we going to see before the Great Tribulation? What we need to be ready for. That's, that's another story, but that gives you the big pictures.
  
  John Gardner 16:04
  Yeah, and that was kind of the goal for today, is to recognize that these views, even though they're different from the view of faith, Bible, church, that they are coming from Scripture. It's, there's some interpretive differences, to be sure. Also, it's also worth mentioning that part of the position of faith Bible Church is that we don't all have to be in full agreement on this issue. It's not a barrier to fellowship together or to church membership. It is the view of the elders, the the official view, the official position of the church. Do you want to speak to that at
  
  Dan Jarms 16:37
  all? Yeah, it's, it's what I'll preach in the pulpit. And now we might have a difference with who could be an elder or who we could hire as a pastor, but as far as membership, it is not a deal breaker, and maybe something to say that helps us as we think about the whole of church history. All these views, various components of them, have existed since 100 and the creeds which were developed in 150 200 300 400 the various creeds, like the apostles creed or the Nicene Creed, or those they only mention the coming of Christ to judge because that's what they could all agree on, and They thought it was more important to be united on who God was, who Christ was, what the work of salvation is, what the work of the Holy Spirit in the church is, and leave the details about everybody's future in a what do we call it a intramural squabbling. We can, we can be. We can provide a united front behind those things, that we believe that Jesus is going to come back, he's going to judge the living and the dead, and he's going to establish an eternal kingdom. Everybody agrees on that, and we're all looking forward to that. That's the most important thing of all. Anyway, when Jesus
  
  John Gardner 17:55
  comes back, premillennialist, non millennialist, post millennialist, we're all going to be really happy. We're all going to be with Him forever.
  
  Dan Jarms 18:01
  Amen. You.

Dan Jarms

Dr. Dan Jarms is teaching pastor and team leader at Faith Bible Church in Spokane Washington, as well as associate dean at The Master's Seminary in Spokane. He has been married for over 30 years to Linda, and has three adult children. He earned his B.A. in English at the Master’s College, B.Ed. at Eastern Washington University, M.Div and D.Min in Expository Preaching at The Master’s Seminary. His other interests include NCAA basketball, woodworking, and art.

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John Gardner

John is the pastor over Music Ministry at Faith Bible Church. He is a coffee aficionado who loves most kinds of music, but has a particular fondness for big band (especially when he's playing trumpet in the band). He and his wife, Laurie, have 3 kids who enjoy reading, hiking, and the symphony.

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