End Times Views Part 3

Dan Jarms and John Gardner discuss premillennialism, defining key theological terms like eschatology, tribulation, rapture, and hermeneutics. They explain that premillennialism involves a future 1,000-year reign of Christ on Earth after His second coming. They emphasize the importance of consistent literal hermeneutics in interpreting Scripture. Premillennialism, particularly dispensational premillennialism, contrasts with other views by emphasizing the literal fulfillment of promises to Israel and the future restoration of Israel. They also caution against reading current events as direct fulfillments of prophecy.

Recommended Resources: 

• Because the Time is Near: John MacArthur Explains the Book of Revelation
• Christ's Prophetic Plans: A Futuristic Premillennial Primer

• Automated Transcription

• Dan Jarms 0:00
  Today on faith matters, I have John Gardner back in the studio. We're wrapping up our series on end times talking about premillennialism.
  
  Dan Jarms 0:16
  I'm Dan Jarms, and you're listening to faith matters, a podcast to help update you on matters of faith, Bible, church, as well as equip you in matters of the Christian faith.
  
  Dan Jarms 0:35
  Well, we are back in the studio to talk about end times, and John Gardner is here with me again.
  
  John Gardner 0:40
  Hello everyone,
  
  Dan Jarms 0:41
  and we're gonna talk about our position today. We have tried to set the stage for what all the Christians agree on. That was our first section on end times. Then what are the major camps? John and I walked through that last time, and this time, we're gonna turn the tables a little bit. John's gonna be the questioner. Apparently, I'm going to be the answer. I'm going to answer a lot of these, and then he'll, he'll bring some things in too.
  
  John Gardner 1:06
  So if you're listening to this podcast and you've not yet listened to the first two, you might want to pause and go back for the the two previous installments, just because a lot of what we're going to talk about today is going to assume you already heard that stuff. But today I want to talk about there are some terms that we've used in the last couple of podcasts. I think it's worth taking some time to define some of these more theological sounding words that people in our position talk a lot about, but a lot of folks listening to podcasts may not be as familiar with these terms. So first of those is the word eschatology?
  
  Dan Jarms 1:42
  Eschatology? Yeah, it means the study of the last things in times.
  
  John Gardner 1:47
  Yeah, yeah. The ology is the study of and the eschaton is what's coming at the end. Yeah, we've talked about the word tribulation. That's a word that's used in Scripture.
  
  Dan Jarms 2:00
  Yes, there's a part in Daniel. I believe it's Daniel nine and Daniel 12. Daniel 12 one, and then Jesus repeats it in Matthew 24 a great tribulation period. And it's just a time of great trouble. And I think there's another version of it, which is called Jacob's trouble. I think that's in Jeremiah off the top of my head, but it's just a long, a big period of great trouble, lots of judgments to bring the world under submission, under Christ's rule.
  
  John Gardner 2:31
  And specifically, a lot of times when we talk about the tribulation, we're talking about something different from when Jesus says, In this world, you will have tribulation, right? Yeah. So when we talk about the tribulation of something future, we're not talking about the fact that things aren't hard now, right? So I think that's an important distinction. One word that is not so clear to find just in a surface reading of the Bible is the word rapture. Where does that come from?
  
  Dan Jarms 2:59
  Rapture comes from the Latin translation of caught up in First Thessalonians chapter four. So the catching up the church will be caught up. Rapturo is the Latin word, or, as I'm trying to make it Italian, but it's just being caught up. Yeah, yeah, raised up.
  
  John Gardner 3:20
  Yeah? A lot of times we'll, uh, you know, there's a hymn that talks about my enraptured soul, not talking about the Rapture. It's talking about being caught up in this love, yes, Christ. But that's, that's what the word means, yeah. How we use it in this discussion is, is talking about that event from first lesson four,
  
  Dan Jarms 3:36
  yeah. Let me say with that. So for, um, our version of eschatology, the rapture of the church, is spoken of in First Thessalonians, 416, for other models, amillennial or post millennial, it's synonymous with the resurrection. So they would just say, that's the resurrection. We would say it is the resurrection, but it's the start of a period of time. So at the rapture, the church is resurrected.
  
  John Gardner 4:08
  Another thing that we've talked about recently, but there's some differences in how other views Look at this. Is the term second coming.
  
  Dan Jarms 4:16
  Yeah, that's that's the biggest area of debate. So what we're saying is that at the rapture, Jesus does come, because it does say at His coming in first Thessalonians, 415, 16, the church is going to be caught up or raptured to Christ. And here we have a second coming language, but then we have other language that doesn't include being caught up. For instance, Revelation, 20 has an idea of a resurrection, the first resurrection, and it's right after the church has come with Christ, and all the saints have come with Christ to reign and conquer. Yeah, so you have two different versions of a resurrection. So the second there, there's a second coming in, Revelation 19, then there's a second coming in, first, Thessalonians, four, and different things happen there. How do you reconcile the different things that are happening and other camps or other views of it have ways to reconcile it. Ours is to say that the Second Coming comes in phases. Phase one is the rapture, where the saints are brought up to Christ. Phase two is he comes with those saints to take over the earth. And that is revelation, 19
  
  John Gardner 5:39
  great and one last term, and this is going to kind of launch us into the rest of today's podcast. Something we've mentioned in the previous two is the word hermeneutics. We've talked about that word being really important in this discussion, but what does that actually mean?
  
  Dan Jarms 5:53
  Yeah, that's a great question. Hermeneutics, in very simple terms, is the rules for understanding a passage of Scripture, rules for understanding anything that you write and everything has a set of rules. A newspaper has a set of rules. You have certain expectations, and things are communicated to you and you just know them. You read them, you read an online article. It has an expectation the writer understands that the reader has expectations. So that's all we're talking about. What are the rules? If we want to get specific, what we're talking about is trying to consistently apply understanding the grammar, language and history behind the language, so we're trying to consistently apply that. Where it gets tricky is the passages in prophecy announcing things that are coming. Are those a type? What? What is announced in the future, in the past is it? Is there something that's coming that's a type that Christ is going to fulfill, or the church is going to fulfill, or Satan's destruction is going to fulfill. Is it a type? Is it a symbol? Just a it's a it's a metaphorical meaning. When you read it, you say, yeah, that looks like a metaphor. Nobody knows exactly what to do in Ezekiel chapter one, when there is a vision of these Seraphim, and they're above wheels that have eyes on the outside and the inside and on the spokes. And these wheels look like they're a chariot with something on top of it that sure seems like a symbol to us, because if that's literal, we have no place for it in our mind. That's that's a big question when you come to understanding prophecy, is it symbolic? Is it intentionally symbolic, or is it intentionally literal, plain? So are there 144,000 Jews in Revelation, seven that are saved 12,000 from each tribe. Or is that symbolic of something? That is what the debate is about. So consistent, literal hermeneutics, every every other camp wants to be consistent, literal, too. The difficulty is, is it plain? Is it a type? Is it a symbol? And then we're gonna arm wrestle over those right?
  
  John Gardner 8:24
  So, you know, we talked about a couple areas where most of these views agree, but this hermeneutic area is one where there are some, some definite differences. So if hermeneutics is about rules, Dan, what are some of them, the most important rules in how we approach scripture at Faith Bible,
  
  Dan Jarms 8:44
  I think one of the one of the first ones is, you're just trying to ask, what does the passage mean within the book that it's in? So can we get as much of the meaning as possible without going to another book first? So that's called passage priority. We say it in books because book, because all passages are written within books. So it's fair within a book to figure out what something means from the beginning, at the beginning of a book, by the end of the book. That's fair because it's all within one book. So you want to do that. It's not always as easy to do that with the Bible. The second rule is to say, Where does it fit on the whole storyline of the Bible? So we do recognize that the Bible begins in creation. There's a fall. Jesus is ultimately our Redeemer, and then he's going to come back. We can see that big picture storyline. So what we're trying to do is follow the storyline unfold, and then in any given place. Ask, how do we see a prophecy get fulfilled? We would have friends who would simply start in the New Testament, and they would reread back everything in the Old Testament in light of the New Testament. And what we're trying to say is, how does it unfold? How does. Jesus fulfill what's promised. Now, naturally, when you know the whole story, that's going to help you understand an early part of the story. But that's different than saying we are going to start reading the whole Bible through a lens of a principle in the New Testament, we're actually going to start so we get accused of this, you know, and it's fair. We're, we're pre millennialists. The word Millennium doesn't show up until Revelation chapter 20. So we're kind of doing that. We just need to admit that, that we're imposing a millennium backwards. But really, a millennium is just what unfolds from all these promises to Israel, all these promises from, let's say, First Corinthians 15, about a future reign of Christ on earth. Oh, it just happens to get named Millennium at the end of it, but it's how to read the Bible following through. So as we're thinking about definitions, Premillennialism, by definition, means that Jesus second coming happens, and then there is a 1000 year reign. So he comes back before the millennium. And tied to this, John, back to something you said earlier about how the various millennial views have a spectrum. We belong to, a spectrum that we might call dispensational premillennialist And somebody else, let's say, like John Piper, would belong to something that's called historic premillennialist. What's the difference between that a historic premillennialist Like Piper is going to see the second coming of Christ at the end of a time of trouble, the end of the tribulation. We would call it a post tribulational rapture, but that's the second coming which would institute 1000 year reign for the historic premillennialists, they're not as concerned about how well Israel is restored into the land, whether Jesus rules from Jerusalem. They're not so concerned about the historic promises to Israel. And that's really what distinguishes dispensational premillennialism. We would say that the new on COVID, the New Covenant unfolds. That's a promise to Israel. The nations are grafted into the New Covenant. After a while, Israel hardens its heart to to God and to its its savior. But there will one day be a restoration. So all of us are blessed by the new covenant in the church. One day, Israel will be restored to her place as the capital country with the capital city of Jerusalem, with Jesus reigning. That's dispensational premillennialism.
  
  John Gardner 12:56
  Yeah. Thank you, Dan. So you mentioned their promises to Israel. So what would be, what would be one way that our church's reading of Scripture is going to differ on those promises versus some of the other options out there?
  
  Dan Jarms 13:10
  Yeah, this. The specific way is that there are many, many promises to Israel, the biggest ones that have an eschatological impact start in Isaiah. So starting in Isaiah, there are promises that have Israel, specifically Jerusalem, being the capital city of the world, and as the capital city of the world and the capital country of the world. The world is going to worship Messiah and come under Messiah's rule through them. So that would start in Isaiah two, for instance. And you could find a variety of places where Jerusalem is going to be the capital. What our view is doing is saying, Where does that show up in the New Testament. How does this unfold? When the disciples were talking to Jesus, they asked him two different times, is now the time? And at the beginning of Matthew 24 is now the time the kingdom is going to come and you're going to take over Jerusalem, Israel is going to be the capital country of the world, and all of the world is going to come worship you. Is this the time the kingdom is going to come? And Jesus says, No, actually, these things need to happen. Then they ask him, just before his resurrection, or just just before his ascension, after the resurrection, before in Acts 1617, now are you restoring the kingdom to Israel? Jesus says, No, not yet. So that's where we would watch it unfold from a promise like Isaiah two, and we give out many, many of those, to the time where it looks like Jesus returns to rule on earth, which is Revelation 19 and Revelation 20. So that's how we track it through.
  
  John Gardner 14:58
  Okay, yeah, Jesus does. And say, Oh, you just misunderstood. Yeah. He just says, No, it's not time.
  
  Dan Jarms 15:04
  It's not time.
  
  John Gardner 15:05
  One one other thing, Dan that you mentioned, I think the last podcast, was the fact that each of the millennial positions that we mentioned has a variety of like sub positions within it. So if we're talking about a pre millennial kind of dispensational view. There are, I think most folks who are familiar with those terms are going to associate it with what we might call pop dispensational books, like how Lindsay's Late Great Planet Earth, or the Left Behind series of books. What are some ways where faith, Bible, church, is positioned might differ from some of those things that are more prevalent in pop culture. Probably
  
  Dan Jarms 15:47
  the most notable way is we're not going to read the newspaper today and then try to see how that fits into Scripture. And dispensationalists get accused of that. I'm, as you know, studying a lot of 16th and 17th century End Times related stuff. So did covenant theologians back then. They read their newspapers and tried to see how the Bible was being fulfilled in their time. So everybody has done that. So it's not a unique, it's not a unique. Jonathan Edwards, who is not a dispensationalist, was a newspaper reader to see how the prophecies were unfolding. So that's not a new thing, but we would strongly recommending against recommend against that because we don't want history to be what interprets the Scripture, so we want to be very careful not to impose what what's the example of how Lindsay that the Apache helicopter were the locusts? You know, it's that kind of thing that's pop dispensationalism. And thank the Lord that our amillennial and post millennial brothers don't do that. We're with them. We don't do that either, because it imposes an outside system on the meaning of Scripture, and that's really dangerous. So I always say, when you don't know when it comes, you will know it'll be it'll be really evident when when it does come. So that's one of the ways that we we try to be different, is we just, we just avoid all that newspaper reading and trying to look around if the rapture could happen at any minute, and we believe that Israel is going to be restored. Did 1948 1949 when Israel came back in? Was that a direct fulfillment of prophecy? Maybe, maybe not. I mean, that's that's another place where, like, we're not looking for a world event to interpret Scripture for us, and we're very careful to say that any particular world event is a fulfillment of prophecy when the rest of it's not fulfilled, Jesus isn't back, those things will become clear enough when we really see Jesus.
  
  John Gardner 17:55
  Yeah, you know when, when scripture says every every eye will see, every knee will bow. I believe that that is going to happen, yes, and that you can't miss it,
  
  Dan Jarms 18:06
  right? So we believe that certain things will unfold and you won't be able to miss it. It will be it will be evident to everybody. You won't need to guess whether a particular King is fulfilling a part of prophecy or not.
  
  John Gardner 18:24
  We don't care how many letters are in somebody's name, yes, that's
  
  Dan Jarms 18:27
  yes, or what numbers they add up to be. But I think the other thing that's different about that there have been branches of dispensationalism that create a number of distinctions as history is unfolding. So because there's still a future for Israel, we believe, and the Bible teaches that there's a future for Israel. Some dispensationalists have said there's one place for the church in heaven, for eternity, and another place on earth for Israel for all eternity. So sort of a two peoples of God idea. And that seems very strange to us. Everybody's going to be together. We would see Jew and Gentile being brought together into the church. That's That's what we're all together right now, there's a future for Israel. There's a future for nations, but it will still be one people of God, under one Lord, yet with a capital, country, nation, and many nations around. And I don't know, even with other views, that that's really any different in the new heavens and the new earth. So there are nations that bring their tribute in Revelation 21 that's what we think is going to happen in the millennium too, on the way to that. So that would be a difference than older forms of dispensationalism or other forms of dispensationalism. So we would say that the Kingdom has been inaugurated with Christ. It's, it is. Unfolding, as opposed to other views, saying, No, this is just the church age, and the church age will be over, and then God's main plan will re engage at the millennial kingdom. And we would say, No, it's a it's a more steady progress. It continues more
  
  John Gardner 20:16
  great. So if, if somebody out there in listener land wanted to do some more self study to kind of better familiarize themselves with this view. What are some some books or some authors that you would recommend they look into? Well,
  
  Dan Jarms 20:33
  this is where the the fact that I teach at the master seminary, I might as well recommend some good master seminary resources, there are a couple of great books that Dr MacArthur has put together on Christ's prophetic plan. So John MacArthur's book on the unfolding of the promises or prophecy that's very readable and accessible for for anybody who has a middle school and on up education. Then if you want to get a little bit more in depth, there's something the seminary put together called Christ prophetic plans for the church. And that's also really helpful. And those are MacArthur's names are on both of those. So you could find those really easy the person who helps at a little bit more thinking level, or at that hermeneutics level. Dr Mike Locke, Michael flock, V, L, A, C, H, has written a number of short little books, and those short little books are helpful dispensationalism. What is it? Or premillennialism? And then as far as how to read the Bible? Well, if you go a little bit farther, he's got one on the hermeneutics of dispensationalism, Locke does, and my favorite newer book by the new president of the Masters College and Seminary, Abner Chao has something about the hermeneutics of the biblical writers. So it's how the biblical writers understood the Bible that they already had when they were writing. So their hermeneutics as they go into writing, those are lots of good ones,
  
  John Gardner 22:06
  and we can probably link to those resources in the description of this podcast. All right. One last one last thing before we go. Dan, just to kind of close out this series for now, what are some things about the end times that are universally encouraging for all believers as we think about the future,
  
  Dan Jarms 22:25
  when we when we think about the whole storyline of the Bible, the storyline of the Bible follows what we would call a new creation model. God made man, formed him out of the dust, meaning, man is going to be very connected with the dirt, not just farming it, but like he comes from it. He's going to rule over it. He's going to be productive in it. And the new creation model takes us from the fall to a new body and a spiritual soul, all perfected in which we enjoy God and serve God and love God in the new heavens and the new earth in a very physical way. So there, there used to be the idea that when you died, there was a rapturous using your word from earlier existence with Jesus, it's just you and Jesus and the angels and the other souls in heaven. But it's kind of an ethereal, cloudy existence. There's Jesus. But what the new what the new creation model teaches, is that there will be you'll have fingerprints, you'll do real work, and you will always be in fellowship with Jesus as you write, paint, build, construct, whatever God makes you to do in this, in this new kingdom. And so whatever was started at the beginning is perfected in the end. And that's very exciting. You know? It makes all the kids ask those questions, will I have horses in heaven, and will I have because they're thinking in physical terms. And we would say that's a very good thing, all of that in the direct presence of Jesus. So imagine this world lived sinlessly without, you know, without any corruption in the direct presence of Jesus. I mean, that's going to be the new heavens. That's very exciting to think
  
  John Gardner 24:20
  about. Amen, thanks, Dan, and thanks for letting me be a part of this series. Yeah. Thank you, John. And thanks to those who ask questions that give us a good reason to have these conversations. You.

Dan Jarms

Dr. Dan Jarms is teaching pastor and team leader at Faith Bible Church in Spokane Washington, as well as associate dean at The Master's Seminary in Spokane. He has been married for over 30 years to Linda, and has three adult children. He earned his B.A. in English at the Master’s College, B.Ed. at Eastern Washington University, M.Div and D.Min in Expository Preaching at The Master’s Seminary. His other interests include NCAA basketball, woodworking, and art.

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John Gardner

John is the pastor over Music Ministry at Faith Bible Church. He is a coffee aficionado who loves most kinds of music, but has a particular fondness for big band (especially when he's playing trumpet in the band). He and his wife, Laurie, have 3 kids who enjoy reading, hiking, and the symphony.

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