Do You Fear Death?

Dan and John discuss the afterlife, focusing on what happens to a loved one, "grandma," after death. They explore two scenarios: if grandma is a believer versus if she is not. For believers, upon death, their souls are immediately in the presence of the Lord, awaiting the final resurrection. For unbelievers, their souls enter an intermediate state, until the final judgment. They emphasize the importance of evangelism and the hope of reunion with loved ones in eternity. The conversation also touches on the grief process, encouraging believers not to grieve as those without hope.

• Automated Transcription

• Dan Jarms 0:00
  Today on faith matters, we're beginning a new series on death. Do you fear death? And today I have John Gardner in with me, and we're going to be answering the question, what happens to grandma when she dies?
  
  Dan Jarms 0:17
  I'm Dan Jarms, and you're listening to faith matters, a podcast to help update you on matters of faith, Bible Church, as well as equip you in matters of the Christian faith,
  
  Dan Jarms 0:37
  we're starting a new series in our faith basics called, do you fear death? I take it as a almost humorous title from Davy Jones from Pirates of the Caribbean, but it's actually a really serious topic, life and death, and it is something that we're gonna take a couple sessions to talk about today I have with me. John Gardner, Hey John. Hey everybody. We're going to start the series by trying to ask questions about death that are really where we live. And one of the questions that we're going to talk about is what happens to a loved one when they die. So John, how do you think about framing that I think you've thought about a little bit, and how do we want to frame this?
  
  John Gardner 1:23
  Yeah, there's a there's a book that Bruce ware wrote
  
  John Gardner 1:29
  called Big truths for young hearts, and it is basically a systematic theology that's designed to help, probably older children, younger teens, to to wrestle with some of the deep questions of the Bible. And he's, he's got a chapter in there that's called what happens to grandma when she dies. And I think, you know, as I think about the questions that we get asked as pastors, particularly, you know, you do the Ask Pastor Dan segments with the kids, that is, that is the way the question is framed. But I think even as adults, that's one of the key questions that people have about what what happens when we die?
  
  Dan Jarms 2:08
  Yeah. And there are a lot of questions that get asked, and of course, some things we know, some things the Bible tells us, and some things it doesn't. So let's, let's go ahead and start with that, that question, where is grandma now that she died? So we're going to have some funerals in the next couple of months. We have one saint who's already gone to be with the Lord, and we've got a memorial coming up. And then there are others that are, you know, facing that transition. So let's start with the question, John, there's really two ways we could think about it. What if grandma is a believer? What if grandma is not a believer? What do we say? Let's start with the What If grandma is not a believer first, and maybe walk through what happens? You
  
  John Gardner 2:58
  know, God's word tells us that there is life after death for for all people, that our physical death is not the end of our story. Hebrews 927, says, just as it is appointed, for man to die once, after that comes judgment, the fact that God's word says after that, in reference to our death, means there is more that is coming. And that is that is true for those who die in Christ, as well as those who do not. And so for those who die apart from Christ, there after that is quite different from from what happens if someone is a believer when they die? Yeah. So
  
  Dan Jarms 3:51
  the thing I think of grandma, grandma passes, what happens at the moment of her death? The soul departs from the body. So most practically, you know, there's several stages to death. There's spiritual death because we're separated from God. There is physical death where our souls are separated, and then we're going to call it eternal death, where there's a final judgment. But the moment that grandma dies, her soul departs. Now, if, if grandma is not a follower of Jesus, her soul goes into an intermediate state. It's the same for a believer too, until a final judgment. I think of Luke 12, where there's quite a bit of talk about death and the second coming, and Jesus says, I tell you, my friends, do not fear those who kill the body and after have nothing more that they can do. But I warn you whom to fear? Fear him who, after he has killed, has authority to cast into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear Him, and that's the one to have on reverence for but, but here, there's, there's this, once you die, now you have to face God, and that is first for a soul. So whoever dies there. Soul goes to be face to face with God, if, if that person isn't a believer, then what happens next? They face God, and then where does God send them?
  
  John Gardner 5:13
  There is a there's a period where, where they are waiting for the the final judgment we see in God's word, I think of the story that Jesus told of Lazarus, yeah,
  
  Dan Jarms 5:29
  Luke 16, yeah, who is
  
  John Gardner 5:34
  pleading for the opportunity to be able to come back and tell his loved ones, yeah, yeah. So I believe from that, that those who die apart from Christ immediately know that that they were wrong, that there is a God and but there, there is, there is no opportunity for them to, yeah, to come back at that point. It is, it is too late, which is different from the idea of, like, a purgatory or something where, yeah, where someone, you know, some faith traditions, believe that you can work off your your sin after you die, or you get a second chance, or you get a second chance. That's not what we read
  
  Dan Jarms 6:16
  in Scripture. Yeah, and Luke 16 is the passage you're talking about the rich man and Lazarus, and it has this really great contrast, because the poor man, Lazarus is the one who enters Jesus calls it Abraham's bosom, but that's his resting holding place, and Lazarus is in hell. And it might be helpful to think of at death an unbeliever. I don't know if they face Jesus directly or not, or they're just immediately sent to the holding place. It's like a prison, a very painful prison, until a final judgment happens. So in theology, we call that an intermediate state. So there's there's something in between death and the resurrection of the body and an unbeliever would, their soul would go into hell. And that's, that's what Luke is talking about, that cast your soul into hell. You want to, want to have reverence and offer him for that. Then what happens, not after that? So there's this waiting period, this intermediate state. And what are we waiting for next for an unbeliever, for an unbeliever is
  
  John Gardner 7:26
  there is a time yet to come when it says there will be the resurrection of all from the dead to face the final judgment. And we see that a number of different places in Scripture. You know, Matthew 25 talks about the separation of the sheep and the goats. And you see this in Revelation as well, that the idea that there's an accounting that takes place God is just he's not sending people to hell who haven't done anything wrong, right? There's a judgment, and for those who are not found in Christ, who we see them being cast into a lake of fire. In theological terms, a lot of times it's referred to as eternal conscious torment. Yes, and
  
  Dan Jarms 8:25
  it's very heavy to think about. It is, I think one of the things to think about is everybody understands systems of justice. So you've had a hit and run accident, you have my wife had a hit and run accident. There is this sense where somebody's gotten away with something that's pretty bad, and it seems like there's no consequences. Everybody has an innate sense of justice, and there's going to be a resurrection. Jesus talks about it in John 528, 29 about the resurrection of the righteous and the unrighteous. We're talking about the unrighteous. And there is a sense in Revelation 20 where every single person gets their turn at court with Jesus, and if that person's asked, Are you guilty, they're going to say, Yes, I'm guilty, and Jesus will say, you are condemned by your words. If that person says, No, I'm not guilty, then Jesus can bring up the record, basically the the eternal video of everything that we've thought done in our life, and everything is displayed. Yes, you are look, look how you have violated my will and wishes, despite the fact that I gave you opportunity and grace for your entire life, you have rejected me so you were guilty. And then that's the sense where all of those people in a resurrected body enter the Lake of Fire guilty, justly condemned. It's very heavy to think about. It is, but it is just God is just. Lost in the condemnation, because we have rebelled against his kingship and his purposes and His grace that's been offered to us in life. So that's a hard one to think about for grandma, and it's painful once a person has gone and died, there's nothing you can do except entrust to God's goodness and God's justice that he does the right thing. And there may not be a lot of comfort in that. And I think I have family members who have died without Christ, and it's a sobering and heavy thought. It does make me think, what about all the family members that are alive? Right? So it gives me some motivation to talk to people. Yeah, we want
  
  John Gardner 10:45
  to be, you know, this question of what happens to someone we love when they die should be one of the primary motivators for evangelism, for reaching out. It is not too late for anyone you know. We see that. You know the thief on the cross. Yeah, you know at the last moment it is, it is heavy when we have loved ones who don't, don't know the Lord. But that's why we want to, we want to give our lives to sharing that there is hope.
  
  Dan Jarms 11:18
  Yeah, I've had to do this. I bet you've had to do this too. You show up at a hospital room where somebody is soon to die, and I want, I want to know our and I want them to know the saving grace of Jesus. I walked into a hospital room last fall, and a person had had opportunity for the gospel their whole life, and I asked him, You're the thief on the cross right now? What? What do you want? And and God had been working in his life for the last couple of weeks, and he says, I want Christ now. I had opportunity with my own dad to do the same thing, and he was getting really sick with leukemia, and he said, I don't believe it. So those are really those are really hard, but you can't be afraid of what they think of you at those moment when life and death is on the line. You when eternity is on the line. So yeah, so the simple summary, if we just say it, is, everybody lives before the Lord, if they reject Him and His grace, especially the gospel of Jesus, Christ, at death, their soul is separated. It's put in a holding place we call hell until a final resurrection, and the body is resurrected immortally to a sinful condition and is assigned to the lake of fire. That's revelation, 20, verse 15. But that doesn't have to be the way. Let's let's talk about the other way, the glorious hope. What happens to Grandma if she dies and she's a believer,
  
  John Gardner 13:02
  well, there, you know, we see scripture says Paul, Paul wrote about that a lot in his letters, particularly as he got closer to he knew his death was coming. Yes, you know, he would say things like, to live is Christ? To die is gain, to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. Yes, he goes. If it were up to me, then I would continue this work. But you know, if I get to be with Jesus, that's that's even better for me. It's better. It's better for you, if I get to stay so, you know, we see a lot of a lot of that in Scripture, that those who die in Christ are immediately the soul departs from their body, and they're immediately in the presence of the Lord. There's still a an intermediate state for them, awaiting the final resurrection.
  
  Dan Jarms 13:57
  I think one of the places that you can see that there's, well, there's maybe two or three passages that say we have proof of an intermediate. Because I think sometimes there's this thought that the soul just sleeps. But I think two or three passages, Samuel was called back from the dead by Saul, which was a very strange situation, and Samuel came back and rebuked. Saul, why are you calling me back? You need to repent and trust the Lord. But another one is that at the Mount of Transfiguration, Moses and Elijah appear to the disciples, to the three that are there, we have the rich man and Lazarus story and in Revelation, six, nine through 11, it's one of the seals. So the fifth seals opened, and this is I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the Word of God and for the witness they had borne. They cried out with a loud voice, O Sovereign Lord. Holy and true. How long before you will judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth? Then they were each given a white robe and told to rest a little longer until the number of their fellow servants and their brothers should be complete who were to be killed as they themselves had been so there, there is this resting place for those tribulation saints who are martyred. I think that's a very similar thing. We to be absent from the body is to be present from the Lord. We are given something to rest in, dressed in white, until the great resurrection, day and then revelation, 20 has a resurrection of all of those saints. That's talked about as the first resurrection. So grandma has an intermediate body of some kind. We don't know exactly what it is, but she has some existence that's wonderful and restful with her savior. We
  
  John Gardner 15:51
  don't know what it is, but it's better than whatever we're imagining. Yes,
  
  Dan Jarms 15:55
  yes. And what's grandma's experience if we look at the multitude in Revelation seven, yeah, so
  
  John Gardner 16:02
  what we see Revelation seven is the multitude that no one could number, from every nation, from all tribes and peoples and languages, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes that they got in Revelation six, crying out with a loud voice, Salvation belongs to our God, Who sits on the throne into the lamb and and it goes on and on. It's really revelation. Five through seven is my favorite reading, because the the intermediate state is, is a worship service. Yes, there's there with the Lord. They're they're rejoicing in their salvation. And they are. They're praising God. They're they are crying out for for justice, yes, but knowing that it's coming,
  
  Dan Jarms 16:53
  yeah. I mean, the the descriptions are so beautiful. They hunger no more, neither thirst anymore. The sun shall not strike them. They won't get sunburned, nor scorching heat, for the lamb is in the midst of the throne will be their shepherd and will guide them to springs of living water, and God will wipe away every tear from their eyes. So there's this there's this picture, especially in Revelation, that at death, there was so much ill treatment, so much sadness. The picture of the tear still rolling down the cheek and Jesus wipes it away. That's how sudden and glorious the turn is from life of shadow and sorrow to a life of light and life with Jesus. So that's what that's what Grandma is experiencing, if she dies and she knows Jesus, she she has God in the fullness. That's that's a wonderful truth. Yeah, I think the follow up is like, When will I see her? Well,
  
  John Gardner 17:51
  if grandma is with the Lord, then you will see her again. If you also are, are with the Lord, if and, and so we want to even at the time we're recording this, last week was Mother's Day, and we heard this great sermon about Lois and Eunice and the faithful testimony of godly women passing on their faith to their children and grandchildren. And that's, that's my testimony, that's many people have, I have grandmothers who I will see again, yes, who have gone on to be with the Lord. And we want for believing parents. We want to pass that on to our children. We want you. There's nothing I want more for my kids. Yes, that they would be found in Christ and but we we want that for all people, but there is a specific longing that those with whom we are closest can share this eternal reward with us.
  
  Dan Jarms 18:52
  God's given us a special relationship and a special responsibility to the family in our life, whether they're our grandparents or whether they're our grandkids. Now that I'm a grandfather, like there's a special responsibility for parents and grandparents and kids and grandkids. God's given us opportunity for that. Let's talk a little bit then John about our sadness at death. So when grandma dies, we're gonna miss her. How do we miss her? What's the Bible say about
  
  John Gardner 19:24
  that first Thessalonians, four and beginning verse 13 says, Don't be uninformed about those who are asleep or those who have died, that you may not grieve as others do who have no hope. The idea being if, if grandma died and she is with the Lord, we still grieve. It's not wrong to grieve. You should grieve. It's right to grieve. We lose. Jesus wept at the death of his friend, but we, we don't grieve like those who have no hope, those who don't know Christ. You know. For them. They they have no hope after the end. Yeah, death. Death is only sad.
  
  Dan Jarms 20:05
  You know, in in a in a secular or materialistic world that we live in, death is just a part of natural processes eventually ending. It's natural to die. But in the biblical perspective, death is the unnatural state. It's not how God designed. God created life death as a consequence of rebellion and sin. So it's a separation that was not part of the original design. And so we do grieve. It is right to grieve love lost. I was talking and I've done it now many times to many saints who the spouse is ready to go be with the Lord. And I asked recently the question, what are you afraid of, and what are you excited about? And this grandma said, Well, I'm afraid of leaving my husband, like I don't want to leave my husband. Well, yeah, you've been married to him for 58 or 59 years, and you love him dearly and you want to be together, and that's a good and right thing. So that's why we grieve when grandma goes to be with the Lord, because we were built for a living relationship with her. But she also said, I will see him. And then she sang Mia, an old Gaither song about the first thing I want to see is Jesus, which was very precious, so that's where we don't have to grieve, and that passage has another set we will see, so we don't know when Jesus is going to return. So either we're going to die, and if we're believers, we'll at some point see grandma, or at some point, I don't know when I think we see Jesus first, and I don't know when we see everybody else, but we will be reunited. And I don't know why the special relationships here don't have some continuation there. So we'll see grandma. But if Jesus returns, something really special is going to happen. And that's, that's that next part you want to walk through. What happens if Jesus returns? We can we call it the rapture, but it's, it's the resurrection of the righteous, yeah,
  
  John Gardner 22:11
  just continuing on. Then First Thessalonians four, you may not grieve as others do who have no hope for since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep. For this, we declare to you, by a word from the Lord, that we, who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep, For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel and with the sound of the trumpet of God and the dead in Christ will rise first, then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord, Therefore encourage one another with these words.
  
  Dan Jarms 22:56
  That's this precious promise. We don't grieve as others, and grandma gets her body before I do yeah. So what happens? We go to the graveside, and we do a graveside burial, whether it's an urn, if somebody's been cremated, or it's a casket, and we talk about what we loved about grandma, and then the people lower her into grave. Sometimes we throw dirt on the grave side. Some are on the on the coffin or the urn. Sometimes you put flowers. But that that body that's going there will be resurrected. She'll get her body, it will be perfected, and we will too, like if we die now and then, that's that's that's going to happen for us later. We can we get our bodies back so we'll actually see grandma in her glorified body from our glorified body at the final time. Like that will be really precious, uncorruptible, no sin, no no decay, a glorious state before God. That's a that's a precious thing to think about. So when we're throwing the dirt in, I always love to read that, that phrase, Thus we will always be together with the Lord, so we will be with our loved ones for all eternity.
  
  John Gardner 24:21
  Pretty good. Yeah. I mean, that's why that that passage ends with, Therefore encourage one another with these words. It's one of the most encouraging things to think about when grandma dies. Yes,
  
  Dan Jarms 24:30
  my favorite funeral song is a couple of lines out of a Johnny Cash version of ain't no grave gonna hold this body down. You know, we're gonna hear that trumpet sound. We're going to rise right out of the ground. Ain't no grave going to hold this body down. That's going to be true for grandma. That's going to be true for us. The rest of the song, I don't recommend, but that line is pretty great. It's pretty great, and it's pretty encouraging. So thank you, John. I thank you. And again, if you have questions about these things, I'd love to hear them. John would love to. Hear him. Well, we could play ask Pastor John, ask Pastor Dan, anytime on questions about death in the afterlife, you.
  

Dan Jarms

Dr. Dan Jarms is lead pastor at Faith Bible Church in Spokane Washington, as well as associate dean at The Master's Seminary in Spokane. He has been married for over 30 years to Linda, and has three adult children. He earned his B.A. in English at the Master’s College, B.Ed. at Eastern Washington University, M.Div and D.Min in Expository Preaching at The Master’s Seminary. His other interests include NCAA basketball, woodworking, and art.

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John Gardner

John is the pastor over Music Ministry at Faith Bible Church. He is a coffee aficionado who loves most kinds of music, but has a particular fondness for big band (especially when he's playing trumpet in the band). He and his wife, Laurie, have 3 kids who enjoy reading, hiking, and the symphony.

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