Faith Basics: Parents, Children, Baptism, and the Lord's Supper

In this episode of Dan Jarms and Mark Frankian conclude our series on baptism and the Lord's Supper with guidance for parents who are thinking through these ordinances with their children. Drawing from their experiences as fathers and grandfathers, they discuss practical steps for preparing children to understand what following Christ means and count the cost before participating in baptism and the Lord's Supper.

• Automated Transcription

• Dan Jarms 0:00
  Today, we're finishing up our series on baptism and the Lord's Supper, and we're talking about it from the perspective of parents helping their children through the process of both of those
  
  Dan Jarms 0:16
  I'm Dan Jarms, and you're listening to faith matters, a podcast to help update you on matters of faith, Bible Church, as well as equip you in matters of the Christian faith.
  
  Dan Jarms 0:35
  Well, today I have in the studio with me, Mark Frankian, Hey, Mark, Hey Dan, and we're the old guys with kids and grandkids, and we're here to talk to parents about getting their kids ready for baptism in the Lord's Supper. So it's part of our faith basic series, and we've worked through what baptism is, what the Lord's Supper is, and we've hinted at these answers, but we're gonna approach this in a really practical way today, because Mark and I have raised our kids, we've done some things that I might do some different things, Mark might do some different things now, as we've understood the Scripture, but we want to help you as parents, think about the process of your kids moving from baptism to the Lord's Supper, and how we think about getting ready for those those ordinances. So we're going to be looking at some key passages and then trying to think through how they apply as we parent. So Mark, just give me a little snapshot. How many kids you have? What did you do in your processes for that? And I'll share mine too.
  
  Mark Frankian 1:35
  Nanette and I had five daughters, one miscarried, so four adult daughters, all eventually baptized and walking with the Lord this day, we have three grandkids, all five years old and younger.
  
  Dan Jarms 1:50
  That's where we are. So the grandkids are too a little too early when we'll talk about what that means for baptism. Yeah, we have three kids. They're they're grown. We have one granddaughter, she's seven, and she expresses some kind of faith in Christ. You know, here's here's really the question that a parent is going to ask is, when I have a child who shows some interest in the Lord, knows that he or she's a sinner and she wants to make a profession, what do we do about baptism? So Mark, what is it to be a disciple. What is it to make a disciple?
  
  Mark Frankian 2:23
  In one word, I would say A disciple is a learner. Two words would be learning Jesus. More words would be learning to be more like Jesus, in heart, in motives, in desires, pursuit of life, priorities of life.
  
  Dan Jarms 2:44
  I think that is really helpful just saying that as we think about our children, because becoming a disciple isn't just agreeing with a certain set of facts about Jesus or facts about yourself, we might say, Do you believe you're a sinner? Yes, I believe I'm a sinner. I keep getting disciplined, so therefore I'm a sinner because I keep disobeying my parents. But what we're talking about is not just a certain set of behaviors or facts to agree with. We're actually in a relationship with Jesus, learning him, right? Yeah, imitating him, or he's our teacher. We're his students. Even that can help a parent think through what's my child doing? They learning Jesus in relationship with him, or are or they have agreed a certain set of facts which we want them to do. Let's expand that. What does it look like to be a disciple, a follower or a student of Jesus,
  
  Mark Frankian 3:42
  making disciples of Jesus Christ, the Great Commission in Matthew 28 starting with verse 18, All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, teaching them to keep all that I commanded you, and behold, I am with you always, even to the end of the age. So coming to Christ in faith and repentance, being born again, that is what transfers you from the kingdom of darkness into the kingdom of God's beloved son, as scripture puts it. So what God does invisibly in the heart is not always immediately crystal clear in in our eyes and in what we observe in people's lives, as we all know, but so that's that's salvation. That's the beginning of learning from the heart to follow Christ when
  
  Dan Jarms 4:39
  we start thinking through the Gospels. This is where I think it's really helpful for parents to think about where their kids are. We start thinking about the Gospels. We find what Jesus is able to do. It's often called his authority. He can heal, he can teach, cast out demons. He has authority as our King. Then there's the teaching. Ian, here's what it looks like to be my follower and sermon on the mount and things like that. But Jesus also has these segments about counting the cost. So as we think about kids, there's there's going to be some issue with death to self. What did you guys do to talk about what repentance looks like, what it means to take up your cross and follow Him. Jesus says you can't be my disciple unless you do that. So you're not really a learner for me unless you do that. How did you guys work that out? Yeah, that's
  
  Mark Frankian 5:35
  a good question. I'm sure there are a lot of different ways, and I'm sure I don't remember them all, but one I do remember is, especially when the kids were younger, like under 10, we would talk more about, are you willing to follow the Bible and what Jesus teaches, even if no one else is so We would have gatherings, friends, relatives, holidays, where not everyone was a believer. And so sometimes, I'm sure we spoke about death. You know, would you be willing to die to follow Christ? But probably most of the time, as I recall, was more about even, if you're the only one in the room or the only one in the family, are you willing to to follow the truth and obey.
  
  Dan Jarms 6:22
  I think that's almost a perfect picture, because we are going to have to be willing to be the only one to say, Yes, I'll obey Jesus when the rest don't. And that's a death to self. That's a taking up your cross daily exactly, and following him. So I like that picture and that that helps us think about it positively. We might say that we also might talk about how much love rules your heart. So one there's what you're willing to die for, the other one is how you're willing to demonstrate love. And of course, that's is equally challenging for a kid, because I have to die to myself to love somebody else, and I have to love what I have in Jesus enough to say, well, giving up or sacrificing for somebody else is worth it, right? How do you understand baptism? What does it mean?
  
  Mark Frankian 7:13
  I think the primary thing I would say is an identification and a willingness to identify with Christ as your Savior and you as a follower, regardless of those around you, and making that a public identification. Yeah, that's, that's the sign, I think, yeah,
  
  Dan Jarms 7:30
  the what Jesus and John the Baptist did is they preached a baptism of repentance. So you're going to have to stop identifying with the sinful world, and you're gonna have to start identifying with the kingdom of God. Baptism for repentance was, I'm leaving the old world, I'm starting in the new world. I have a new identity in Messiah. And another way to talk about that is I'm willing to leave my sins behind, and that is the ongoing life of the believer. I'm willing to leave my sins behind. We call it repentance,
  
  Mark Frankian 8:01
  right? Yeah, I think in the nets, in my minds, as we were raising young kids, that's part of the big similarity between before salvation and after salvation is that we're, we're always, we're pointing the kids to the Lord in faith and repentance, and you trust God and acknowledge where he says you're wrong and disobeying, and that's the same before and after salvation. So the walk of the Christian life is a continued life of repentance and faith in the Lord and seeing where he points out that our heart motives or behavior is wrong and needs to be changed. Yeah, where
  
  Dan Jarms 8:39
  we are followers of Jesus. We're learning Jesus. We watch what he does in the gospels, and we say, I don't do that. So I need repentance and faith. I need to turn away from this. I need to follow Jesus as my example, as my master and Lord. So yeah, I would agree. We kind of teach it faith, that baptism has to do with identification. It has to do with leaving an old life. It has to do with repentance. And that's why I think Peter in Acts 238 when the crowds hear the start of a sermon, and even the whole sermon hear the start of a sermon, and they say, What must we do to be saved? And Peter says, in Acts 238 Repent and be baptized for the forgiveness of your sins. Well, does that mean I need to repent and be baptized? No. Baptism is the symbol of repentance. Repent by being baptized like make it. Make a public symbol about it. So if we're just say that we have one other that we like to say as a church, we have that identification. We have inclusion into the body of Christ as another part of it. We have repentance. So those are all elements of what baptism is. The one that is, to me, most helpful for parents is identifying that. Repentance, how easy it is for my kids and my granddaughter to articulate the two ways to live gospel message, or to memorize the verses of the Romans road, or to ask them, Are you a sinner? Well, yes, I'm a sinner. Do you need Jesus to forgive you? Yes, I need Jesus. Do you want to ask him to do that? Right? To do that right now? Of course, they're gonna ask him to do it that right now. Like a five year old can do that, memorize the verses, recognize they're in trouble, and ask for help. Can a five year old easily repent? So when you think of signs of repentance, what does that look like?
  
  Mark Frankian 10:40
  Yeah, that's a good question. I think, I think it does get difficult, especially as a parent who who cares. And I think a couple things to say would be, you want to involve other people, ultimately, if they're thinking that they're repentant, and ultimately, want to get baptized, but, but just in general, you have relationships in the church, part of the church community and the leadership of the church to help help that. But I think just seeing changes. I think another word for repentance is just to change, change of direction, you know, you do 180 change a heart, change a motive, change of behavior. Yeah, repentance is change. So I think that's some kind of changes, internal internally motivated, again, that's hard to discern at times, but, but I think just change, yeah,
  
  Dan Jarms 11:31
  yeah. Dennis Gunderson has a book called The child's profession of faith, and he has a handful of markers that we thought was really helpful for our kids. Do they now have a desire without mom and dad prompting them to have a relationship with the Lord by reading the Bible and praying? Do they want to do that on their own? Do they feel bad on their own when they sin against their siblings or their parents or their classmates? Did do they get conviction from sin. Those are, those are good natural signs. They have a natural affection for the Lord. They they don't like their sin. They really seek to change. So toward baptism, what are the keys in your mind where you say, Well, I'm ready to have them talk to an elder, youth pastor, children's pastor, and we're ready to go through a process. That's how we do it. That's how we recommend people to do it. Is your child says, I want to be baptized? Well, great. Let's talk to a pastor, an elder, a youth worker, and let's get let's get the process rolling. What are, what are key questions that you asking a family? What
  
  Mark Frankian 12:40
  changes have you seen for the parents, I think for the child? What? What changes do you see? What? What has changed for you? What did you understand that before you didn't understand what changes did that lead to? Where are you headed now? Things like that. Two,
  
  Dan Jarms 13:02
  two follow up questions that go with that, and because I think that's very appropriate where we're looking for repentance, especially child who's grown up under the gospel heard it Sunday School main service from her, from his or her parents. Two, two questions that might follow up with that one is didn't, didn't the people in the New Testament, in Acts specifically here, believe and get baptized right away. Are we putting up artificial parameters on how fast we move to baptism? So
  
  Mark Frankian 13:40
  I don't think it's an artificial barrier. I think it's a good and healthy barrier. If God has saved a child, praise God. But as human stewards of that child, be it a parent or be it an elder in a church, we still have to answer to the Lord for what we do. So we need to, in some way, shape or form, have some humble, loving wisdom in allowing that child or helping that child understand what may or may not have happened in their own life and heart. The
  
  Dan Jarms 14:12
  second question that often happens is a child can't remember a real, specific moment where there was a change. And I've had this conversation with many adults like they don't have a point in time. I have two points in time, the first time I heard a biblical gospel and I wanted to be saved, and the time I really got saved, the very vivid things in my mind my kids don't have that as easily, because they were always growing up around the gospel. They were always being pointed out their sin is apparent, and if they didn't see it, we helped them see it. So they always knew they were sinners. They always knew they needed Jesus. So they don't always have a point in time you. How do we help a child who may not have a point in time deal with the issue of change?
  
  Mark Frankian 15:06
  I think that is connected with the first question, that it would be good and healthy and wise and loving to have a process and build in some time into evaluating what the changes really are or are not. So I think it's fine to not remember a particular time I'm more like you. I have two times in seventh grade, the summer before seventh grade, understanding the gospel. I thought for years that that's when I was saved, but after looking back on it, my freshman year of college was the first time I actually repented and trusted God for my life and forgiveness of sin. So it took years to sort that out for me. But I think in terms of baptism and the Lord's Supper building in some time to as a parent and an elder, to evaluate a change in a child's life is fine and good and healthy, because the issues are the same good praise God, keep keep believing, keep following, keep repenting. When, when he points out you need to repent, and the Lord will bear fruit, and it'll become clear. You
  
  Dan Jarms 16:12
  and I have talked about it, that it's not really and we're not looking for an age, we're looking for an understanding. So it's difficult for me to imagine that somebody could have a mature enough understanding before 12. But 12 is not the rule. The issue is understanding. So I think of our parents who have an eight year old, who are, they're, they're, they're spiritually interested. Summarize your your key understandings that a parent could look for.
  
  Mark Frankian 16:42
  Who is Jesus? Yeah, who are you, yeah, what is the Bible? Yeah, what is the role of your parents in the church, in the Bible, in your life? What is faith? What is repentance, or some terms like
  
  Dan Jarms 17:00
  that. Yeah, talking with a dear friend, we were talking about baptism, and he was noticing at two churches that he visited. One said, Any kids want to come and get baptized right now, trust Jesus be baptized. And so, of course, kids raise their hand, and the questions are, do you believe Jesus died for your sins, that He rose from the dead? Yes, yes, yes. Okay, jump in. And here you have a five year old jumping in, and he's like, I don't think there's anything wrong with that, because the New Testament has them being baptized really quick. Said, but do they have to count the cost? So was there any process in that child stepping up where he could publicly count the cost? Well, probably not. So, you know, the initial conversation was like, you're just putting barriers that aren't in the Bible. No, actually, Jesus put the barriers in it. It was called counting the cost. So that might be, that might be helpful to think about and use this list so that those upper what is repentance? And your examples with your kids were really good. What we're saying as elders and as a church, here's the general flow. We bring the Gospel to our kids and we evangelize them. At some point they feel and we feel with good criteria, that they have trusted Christ, and do we let them take the Lord's Supper before they're baptized? Do we help them toward baptism and then take the Lord's Supper?
  
  Mark Frankian 18:30
  How do we work through that? Yeah, I would think there's a wisdom, and even a loving wisdom, in putting baptism before the Lord's Supper, for the reasons we're talking about what baptism is, what it means, having the public affirmation, public testimony to what's happened. I think there's some wisdom in that. I think, as a minimum, I would personally want to link the Lord's supper with the process of being baptized. In other words, the child, the parents, the elders, have agreed that the child is ready. Maybe it's being scheduled, or it's coming up, or it's not, not quite a date yet, but it's imminent. So I think, I think towards the end of that baptism process, I think that would be, that would be fine, that the issues are the same. I would not want to separate meaning. Maybe have years between starting to take communion and years later having baptism. I don't Yeah and
  
  Dan Jarms 19:31
  confession here before I had really thought through it well and really examined scripture from multiple traditions we thought we wanted our kids to have genuine expressions of faith. We wanted them to repent from their sin, trust Jesus and make an outward profession and start moving that way. But we the way we do Lord's Supper. It's relatively private. It. So you're just sitting with your kids in the chairs or the pew, and really it's just the kids seeing that, but they get to participate in the remembrance of the gospel, so we let them, at least the oldest two, start taking communion way before we went to baptism, because we felt like baptism was much more public, and that might have been okay reasoning, but I think the nature of the symbols is important. So baptism is the symbol of repentance and identification. It's the initiatory right? And the Lord's Supper is the remembrance. And we have to add to the Lord's Supper, it is a community meal. It is to be taken with the family of God. So is your child able to understand his role with the family of God? So again, that's maturity. Are they ready to serve? Are they ready to be church disciplined? Are they ready? Wait a second. We're talking about church discipline our kids. Well, if they're believers, we want them to stay faithful to the Lord. So that's also part of the process. So that was, that was our story. We I would change it now. We would, we would wait through it. We wouldn't have them take the Lord's Supper until they were baptized. At the same time, if you have your kids take the Lord's Supper and they're not baptized, there's nobody going to knock the little cups out of their hand. Are you baptized? We're not going to do that, but we're going to try to work through that process. No,
  
  Mark Frankian 21:30
  I agree. I think, as an elder, I would not police that we don't police that we we are clear. I think weekly that what the Lord's Supper is, what communion is, and we go over that each week that we haven't and there is some personal responsibility in that for the parents of their kids, and there's some decisions they have to make, as we're talking about but if I were to see someone I knew well and knew their kids and saw that happen, then I might want to talk with them, but it's still not like something I'm policing, but it might be a conversation to have about how that's going.
  
  Dan Jarms 22:05
  Yeah, the history of the church baptism was always first. It's really only been in the last 100 years where it's they've been almost isolated as two different faith events. You know, here's here's a profession of faith. It's an act of obedience to be baptized. It's an act of obedience to take the Lord's Supper. And the meaning of the symbols has generally been pushed aside. But 1900 years before you were baptized first and then you could take the Lord's Supper is pretty much the way, way it was, and that's actually the pattern in Acts. So Acts two, after many words of preaching, 3000 people are baptized. And then in the next verse, that's 241, next verse 242, they take the Lord's Supper as we wind down, Mark, then I think there are maybe two questions for the average parent. One question is, I have a child really interested. I have a daughter, she's eight, she's nine, she has real spiritual interest. She looks at baptism, she looks at the Lord's Supper, and she says, I want to do that. What do we recommend for our parents to
  
  Mark Frankian 23:17
  do? I would recommend praising God and encouraging that as much as possible. I think, I think building into that is part of the idea of being a parent is this is great keep doing that we want, that we're praying that God would keep making that more and more evident in your heart and in your life. And that's everything that we're trying to do, and we want to keep pointing you to, is to keep growing in your faith, in in Christ and love for God and desire to obey, even if you're the only one. And building into that is the time it takes to to make a decision and evaluate that, both as parents and as a church, so as community and relationships in that. So on the one hand, do you want to encourage all that? On the other hand, you kind of want to slow it down and and just evaluate the bearing fruit.
  
  Dan Jarms 24:10
  One really practical thing is you could tell your son or daughter, we're gonna read all the Gospels and we're going to look at what followers of Jesus do, who Jesus is. And of course, you do that a couple of chapters a week. That's a month's process. And in real parenting, that's yours, because sometimes it takes a long time to get get through those things. But you're going to say, we're going to go through all of this, and I'm really excited. You want to do that, let's open up the Gospels and learn Jesus together,
  
  Mark Frankian 24:39
  right? Yeah. We had one who was seven and wanted to be baptized, and it kind of surprised us, and we weren't ready for that. So we said something similar to that, praise God. We're kind of not sure what to do, but we'll, we'll work with you and keep bearing praying that God would bear fruit in your life and make that real. So got others involved in the. Elders of the church and so on. And later that year, she got baptized, and she's by the grace guys still walking with the Lord today, praise the Lord, another one who professed Christ. But then years went by and she would not get baptized. So with no pressure, but an occasional comment from us, you know, if you're professing Christ, at some point you're going to have to get baptized, right? And so slowly, would get a little stronger on that. But it was a period of years, so she had was a over 10, you know, young teen, I think, by the time she did without pressure, but just like an awareness that you know, you're either going to, ultimately, neither get baptized or stop saying you're a believer. Yeah.
  
  Dan Jarms 25:42
  One other final question, how picky is the church about the order? So is the church picky about baptism, first Lord's Supper, second, if you're going to be direct Mark, just tell me. What should I do?
  
  Mark Frankian 26:01
  I would say the the there's good wisdom and historical example of getting baptized first before communion. However, we're not going to police that, and we're not going to be picky about that. So, yeah,
  
  Dan Jarms 26:14
  we're leaving in the parents discretion, exactly that, that child is is ready. One of the things that we've always said about baptism is that it's an act of obedience, and at some point, if the child is not willing to be obedient, they shouldn't be taking the Lord's Supper, because in the Lord's Supper we say you should only take it if you're actively obedient to Christ, not sinless, but Right, so there is some room for that, but taking it slow, being patient with the process. All right. Thanks. Mark. You.

Dan Jarms

Dr. Dan Jarms is teaching pastor and team leader at Faith Bible Church in Spokane Washington, as well as associate dean at The Master's Seminary in Spokane. He has been married for over 30 years to Linda, and has three adult children. He earned his B.A. in English at the Master’s College, B.Ed. at Eastern Washington University, M.Div and D.Min in Expository Preaching at The Master’s Seminary. His other interests include NCAA basketball, woodworking, and art.

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Mark Frankian

Mark is the Ministry Operations Director at Faith Bible Church. He and his wife Nanette have four grown daughters. They love spending time outdoors, reading, and playing disc golf with their daughters when they get the chance.

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