Faith Basics: Discipling Toward Baptism

Dan Jarms and Joe Swanson discuss the process of discipling people toward baptism, emphasizing the role of disciple makers in guiding new believers. They highlight the importance of understanding the gospel, genuine repentance, and the willingness to count the cost of following Christ. Joe suggests that children should understand the gospel and demonstrate repentance before being baptized, typically around ages 12-18, though Faith has no hard age limits for baptism. They stress that baptism is a public declaration of faith and should not be seen as a hoop to jump through. Parents are encouraged to have open, honest conversations with their children about their faith journey.

Recommended resources: 

• Discipleship Toolbox
• Soul Diagnostic: How to Know if You Are a Christian
• Stop Asking Jesus Into Your Heart: How to Know for Sure You Are Saved by J.D. Greear
• Am I Really a Christian? The Most Important Question You're Not Asking by Mike McKinley
• Understanding Baptism (Church Basics) by Bobby Jamieson

• Automated Transcription

• Dan Jarms 0:00
  Today on faith matters, we are continuing our faith Basics series on baptism and the Lord's Supper. Today I am in the studio with me, Joe Swanson, and we're going to talk about discipling people toward baptism.
  
  Dan Jarms 0:18
  I'm Dan Jarms and you're listening to faith matters, a podcast to help update you on matters of faith, Bible Church, as well as equip you in matters of the Christian faith.
  
  Joe Swanson 0:38
  Hey, Joe, how's it going? Dan, thanks for having me back.
  
  Dan Jarms 0:41
  Yeah, we're talking about baptism and the Lord's Supper. And last time, Joe and I, we were talking about different views on baptism. Why we take a believers baptism stance, and one of the things we led into last time was how to help people through the process of it. Joe is our children's director. Who's one of our biblical counselors, and so he's discipling both kids and adults. And work, you work with a lot of families Joe and Joe is one of those major funnel points as families are thinking about, when do my kids get baptized? We're gonna break this down into maybe, like four parts. One is we're gonna talk about the responsibility of baptism for the disciple maker. And then we're going to talk about what it means for a new believer to articulate the gospel in a clear way. We're going to talk about true faith, true repentance, counting the cost all of those things that Jesus taught about, what true discipling and disciple making was, and then what? What is a real disciple? I'm not sure. Generally, the average church thinks about the ownership of the baptism process. So our our theme verse as a church, comes from Matthew 2818 through 20. But here's the question before I read the verse, whose responsibility is it to get a new believer to baptism? Is it the believers responsibility, or is it the disciple maker's responsibility? Let's listen see how we can answer that question. Jesus came and said to them, All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always to the end of the age. So this call to make disciples of all nations, and that's from all nations, and then you're going to be baptizing individuals who's responsible for the process? Well, I suppose you could say the believer is responsible. It's an act of obedience, but the direction is to the apostles and therefore all the disciple makers after them. Joe, what do you think, as far as just talk about our disciple making culture, how do we increase our awareness? How do we think about moving people along from the process of they've heard the gospel to baptism?
  
  Joe Swanson 3:10
  Well, I think in growth groups is a great opportunity for growth group leaders to be taking a new believer and just having good conversations about baptism early on in the discipleship process. I think sometimes as disciples, we're waiting for the believer to start down that road, and I think that we can maybe move that process up earlier in the discipleship and just help inform the new believer that they should be thinking about getting baptized.
  
  Dan Jarms 3:43
  I'm thinking about baptism as a milestone. The disciple maker is is thinking about the individual that he's got. If he shows up at growth group, he might already be a Christian, and I might already be baptized. So the conversations just give me a little bit of your backstory. Tell me about your relationship with the Lord. What's your testimony, and just through processes of conversation, clarify a solid understanding of the gospel. And yeah, I come from a church background, and that person's really a believer. Okay, good. They've crossed that milestone. Now I'm the next milestone is wherever they are in their life. As they grow and mature, we think of just different maturity levels within within our groups. And if somebody shows up at my group and I don't have a clear idea that they're a believer, then I might say, Do you want to get coffee? And can I walk through the through the gospel with you? And as a person seems to grow and understand and believe that gospel, then we're going to be asking, When do you want to make that public? Because that's what baptism is. But I think that's one thing we want to do, is encourage that, and it's really good for the individual to be moving toward that process, because they want to know, and you want to know, they want to have eternal life. We want them to have eternal life. And. We want to know that that's true. And Jesus designed baptism as one of those milestones to help that person and the church know where a person's at.
  
  Joe Swanson 5:12
  Yeah, I think that's really helpful, because when I have conversations with believers, a lot of times the conversation is, when were you baptized? And that like that you talk about that milestone, that is a very big milestone in the life of a believer. We're not saying
  
  Dan Jarms 5:28
  baptism saves anybody, but because of what we talked about last time, what baptism symbolizes, it's significant. So our encouragement is moving people along through the process in baptism. This is for growth group leaders. It's also for biblical counselors. But the big reason why I have Joe with me today is Joe's working with a lot of families, so let's talk about helping the mom and dad move their kids through that process too. So why don't you give me some steps? What's critical here? Why don't you walk us through that process? Joe, you
  
  Joe Swanson 6:02
  bet I think there's some questions that need to be answered. And I think one of those first questions is, do the person that you know, your child you know, I'm thinking of my family. I've got some younger kids I want to know. Do they understand the gospel? Can they explain the basic concepts like sin, Jesus's death, resurrection and salvation by grace, through faith? Can they articulate the gospel clearly? And I just would encourage families and mom and dads, you know, don't ask any questions that end with no or yes, like you want to know what they're thinking, what their processes are. Does the child understand that they received salvation? It was a free gift from God. I love. Ephesians, two, eight through nine says, For it is by grace. You have been saved through faith, and this is not from yourselves. It is a gift of God, not by works, so that no one can boast. Yeah.
  
  Dan Jarms 7:08
  So we're trying to look for a clear articulation and a credible testimony that's that's really helpful to start with. We're going to hit resources at the end about what is the gospel and variety of other things. We have a variety of other resources we're going to talk about. So understand the gospel is critical. Joe, talk to me about repentance and sin. I think of of these things which was part of Jesus first preaching, John the Baptist, first preaching. What's this understanding about personal conviction of sin, repentance? Should that look
  
  Joe Swanson 7:39
  like when I think about that again. I'm thinking about my kids, and I am really encouraged when my children come up to me and they say, Hey, Dad, I'm sorry I was wrong. Please forgive me.
  
  Dan Jarms 7:54
  And you say, who are you?
  
  Joe Swanson 7:57
  Yeah, it doesn't happen all the time, but I enjoy it when it does happen, and then I go, Hey, well, what happened? Because I don't know what's going on, but they have been convicted of their sin, and they are coming up to me to confess what they've done. And I think that, as a parent, that's what we're wanting to see, that the Holy Spirit is working in their heart. And what I love about John 16 eight, it says, And when He comes, He will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment.
  
  Dan Jarms 8:30
  Yeah, so what you're talking about, it's one of those signs is, is my child? Do they have a genuine articulation of gospel, and do they show a conviction over their sin? So the spirits working in them convicting of sin, and they feel natural guilt and want to make things right. So that's a really good sign. Keep going. What other signs for repentance, life change would you be looking for?
  
  Joe Swanson 8:53
  Well, one thing we are looking for evidence of turning away from their sinful behavior and actively following their king, their Christ. And they don't do it perfectly. I don't do it perfectly, but what we are seeing is just a general trend that they are becoming more like Christ and not less. I think there's also they're showing godly repentance compared to worldly sorrow. They're not concerned about the discipline that they are receiving, but they are more concerned about sinning against God and against a holy God, yeah,
  
  Dan Jarms 9:36
  because kids like adults sin, they get in trouble, and what you're hoping to see out of an adult is that there's genuine sorrow for their sin, not just I got caught, I have consequences, but when you see that in kids lives, that's supernatural. So it's really encouraging when you see
  
  Joe Swanson 9:53
  that, yeah, it is. And what I love to see too, is when a child comes up to me. Or if I'm discipling someone, and they take personal responsibility for their actions. They don't blame shift. They don't say that it's somebody else's fault why they sin, but they they understand their responsibility before a holy God.
  
  Dan Jarms 10:18
  So you're looking for genuine signs of repentance. That's what I was looking for in my kids before they went to baptism. And when I was children's pastor back in the day, and we'd have these conversations, this is where I would sit down with them and ask, What's genuinely coming from the child's heart, this sorrow over sin. So he hit that one. What else are you looking for that's seeming to be an overflow from a changed heart.
  
  Joe Swanson 10:44
  What I love to see too is just fruits of the Spirit. Is there some love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, self control. You know, am I seeing my kids, or am I seeing the person that I'm discipling, is he laying down his life and letting someone else get the benefit of something? Or, if I'm talking with Henry, he is being self controlled in a way that I haven't seen, and I know like you're talking about that is a supernatural event in his heart.
  
  Dan Jarms 11:20
  In my mind, I put that in the counting the cost. Kind of statements that Jesus says, unless you are willing to blank and it's a count the cost, then you can't be my disciple. In other words, I have your highest Allegiance. I have your highest love and obedience. It's not going to be something else. Walk through some of those counting the cost. Ideas,
  
  Joe Swanson 11:41
  you know, I'm reminded of Luke 923 about counting the cost. And it says, And he said to all, if anyone would come after Me, let him deny himself, take up his cross daily and follow Me. For whoever would save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake will save it. And if you want to say three ways that a person counts, the cost is that he's denying himself. He is demonstrating that self control. He's taking up his cross daily. He's dying to himself, and he's preferring others over himself. And then finally, he follows Christ. And it's it's not the Christ that he wants, but it is the Christ of the Bible, the Lord and King of his life.
  
  Dan Jarms 12:26
  I like that statement too, because it's not that they're just doing the hard things, but they're really turning to Jesus. They're really loving Jesus, and they say he's worth it to me, like my life doesn't mean anything unless I have him. That's a real, real sign you have that in Luke. Luke 1414, 27 whoever does not bear his own cross and come after Me cannot be My disciple. For which of you desiring to build a tower does not first sit down and count the cost, whether he has enough to complete it, otherwise, when he has laid the foundation is not able to finish it all who see it begin to mock him. So he's using this metaphor about renouncing all he has. And so at the end of that parable, He says, so therefore anyone of you who does not renounce all that he has cannot be My disciples. So there's those counting the costs. Those are excellent verses. There would be more. There's the kinds of conversations that Jesus has, that unless you're willing to stand before men and take take ridicule for them, unless you're willing to be persecuted, unless you're willing to publicly name me, if you're not willing to publicly name me, then you're not worthy to be my disciple. Is that a work? No, it's, it's a sign of loving Jesus above all other things. And
  
  Joe Swanson 13:44
  I think piggybacking on that is that what, what is a person willing to give up? You know, look at the example. In Matthew 1916, through 30, the rich young ruler, he was not willing to give up his money. He wanted Jesus and money, and Christ was saying, doesn't work like that. I
  
  Dan Jarms 14:04
  think that's a really good thing that all of us could be asked at any time. A newer believer, you might want to ask, you know, is there one thing that's harder for you to give up? What's what's in your way right now, of of of saying publicly, Christ is my Lord and Savior, and I'm going to follow him. And sometimes there's a thing, it's their money, it's their popularity. You know, we'll have non Christians come who were? They're sleeping together, they're living together, and they're interested in becoming Christians. And then you have this conversation with them. So you're you're sleeping together, you're having sex together, but you're not married, and that's a sin. So are you going to stop? You going to stop that? Right? And they're like, oh, what? Well, then we have to pay extra rent because it's cheaper for us to live this way. Like, there's a lot of questions that show up and you. Yeah, I mean, I, I got saved out of the world. So there were a lot of things that, oh, that's a sin too. Oh, okay. There was a lot of those things. That's the process of disciple making is, is helping people say, when you follow Jesus, you're gonna, you're gonna pay him, and you want to, because he's your Lord, and he's your Savior, and he has a good and better plan for your life. One of the issues that will will occasionally get asked Joe is, what age do you baptize kids at Faith, Bible, church?
  
  Joe Swanson 15:33
  And that's a great question. I think we should never put age as a determining factor. While some children might be ready at a younger age, is typically recommended just waiting until a child can demonstrate mature understanding of the gospel. But I never want to discourage my children when they're talking about baptism and salvation. I always want to be encouraging to them. But you know, if you had to put a number in it, typically children are getting to that point between 12 and and 1618, is kind of when they're thinking through those, those deeper ramifications of baptism.
  
  Dan Jarms 16:11
  But let's just say, some boy, some girl at eight year old, eight years old, says mom and dad, the Bible says that Christians should be baptized. I'm a Christian. I want to be baptized. You want to encourage their faith. That's right. That's good. We're glad. You want to be baptized. And if you could walk through those counting the cost conversations, and you want to walk through what true faith is, which we'll get to in just a minute, you want to walk through those with that and that child gives a compelling, clear, trustworthy answer, like, all right, we can do that. Yeah. It's just really rare to have an eight year old who's got that kind of maturity. So it's, it's they don't usually get there till 1112, 1317, 19. I know churches that don't baptize kids until they're 18, because they don't think they can count the cost. They can't renounce the world. They're they're homeschool kids who have no world to reject. So they do that. We're not quite doing that, but hopefully you hear the point is that this is a genuine believer stepping up publicly, and that takes some finesse as a parent to figure that out and encourage their faith?
  
  Joe Swanson 17:24
  Yeah, absolutely. And I think another thing along those lines is that you want unity with your spouse as you're working through that and our My prayer is that God would give me discernment and wisdom on when my children should be baptized,
  
  Dan Jarms 17:44
  in some ways, you know, Mom and Dad, you're listening and you you want your child to be baptized. Why do you want them to be baptized? You know, sometimes, as a parent like it looks good on me, sometimes I'm just worried that if they died, they'd go to hell, and if they were baptized, I'd feel a little bit better. That's a good impulse that you want your children to spend eternity with You, but baptism isn't actually going to get them there. It might make you feel good that they're there, but it's not going to actually get them there. So thinking more about where their hearts are is more important in that process.
  
  Joe Swanson 18:20
  Absolutely. Joe,
  
  Dan Jarms 18:22
  I've heard you talk about this. You want to have ongoing relationship conversations. You talk about encouraging them in their faith. How do you try to do that? How do you and Christy try to encourage their faith on the way to baptism, on their way to a full life serving Jesus.
  
  Joe Swanson 18:41
  What we try and do is not put baptism as a hoop to serve in children's ministry or be part of a church or any of that. It is not a hoop that they want to jump through, and then they can do something that they really want to do. We really seek to see fruits in their life and have a natural, outflowing conversations about baptism. It's not a forced conversation. It's just a conversation that we have in our home, and so it's a little bit driven by kind of what we're seeing, and we try and push in into it a little bit, but then we're very careful not to make it a
  
  Dan Jarms 19:27
  badge, a proof like, okay, you've arrived, yeah, now you can be baptized, right?
  
  Joe Swanson 19:32
  There's no magic formula. There's no magic words that a person says in order to become a believer. And just like baptism isn't some supernatural act that gets them into heaven, it is just to be obedient to God's word, and it's a natural outflowing of what God has already done in their heart.
  
  Dan Jarms 19:58
  Why is baptism important? The Church. Baptism is important for the church because the church can say, Oh, we know who our family members are. Oh, you're a family member. You're a child of God with me. I'll care for you. You care for me. So it's important for the church to do that because it identifies who the family is. It's important for the individual to do that because there they have had to take a pretty significant step of faith. They've had to make Jesus the exclusive Lord of their life. And so they're willing to do that publicly, with the embarrassment of getting up in front of people and all that is it's important for the believer too, so we're trying to bring that together. It's, it's what it signifies, not the actual ritual. That's the big deal. The the process is a big deal for the church. It's a big deal for the individual. Joe. How do we often see people sign up for baptism? Like, what's, what's the most common way you see people sign up for baptism? Because I you get this from the children's ministry side.
  
  Joe Swanson 21:02
  Uh, yeah, it's they want to serve in children's ministry. So when I'm talking to them, I'm asking those questions about baptism, about membership and and what we do in children's ministry. If they're between 12 and 18, they don't have to be baptized to serve in children's ministry, but I'm talking with their parents. I'm talking with them. Is that something that is on the horizon? Is that a goal that they have in order? And so we don't set that as a barrier to serve in children's ministry, but we feel like it's a great opportunity for those that are on track to be baptized and be a member in the next couple of years, to just be known in the classroom and serving others. So
  
  Dan Jarms 21:51
  that's one kids are going to come up and want to serve. And normally a person's a member to serve, yeah, normally you have to be baptized to be a member. So a lot of times a kid's like, well, I want to serve. I need to become a member. I guess, to become a member, I need to be baptized. And as soon as you do that, it just feels like hoops. But that's, that's just a catching point. Like, we just, we just have, like, one of those, those trout traps in a river, and we just like, okay, that's the point where we got to talk about this, and most people handle it really well. We would love it to happen in just the normal ebb and flow of the conversations, where parents, who are the disciple makers, are moving them in that direction, and the kids want it to as well. The other place we get it a lot is at membership. So somebody wants to become a member, because we make a big deal about membership here, we want everybody to be a member who's a believer, and we find out that they are either not a Christian, yet they become a Christian. We lead them through the gospel. They get saved, or they've been a Christian, but they've never been baptized, and so now we're baptizing them, which, again, feels a little bit like it was a hoop, but for us, it's a it's a catching point for them in their life, it's a stop. And we can have our discipling moments here, where we wish it would happen in the normal disciple making life and other places in the church, but we have those set there. So that's really common. You can't serve without being a member. You can't be a member without being baptized, because we want believers as members of a church, not just children of believers and and so on. So that's that's a key one. Let me ask one more set of questions before we hit resources. Joe, I'm a parent. I've got a nine year old girl, and she says, I want to be baptized. What do you just quick set of questions that you would tell dad to ask his daughter. So
  
  Joe Swanson 23:46
  kind of what we use is, why do they want to be baptized? What does it mean for them to be a Christian and let the child answer those questions in their own words, not yes or no, kind of type questions, how do you know that Jesus is your Savior? What does it mean to repent of your sins? Are you willing to publicly declare your faith in Jesus, if it costs you something? Are you willing to give up anything that is holding you back from following Christ completely. Those are just kind of helpful questions as you are working with your kids. And another is seek guidance from your youth leader or pastor that knows your child well. I think that's a great opportunity to learn more about your your child and if they're ready to be baptized, is get input. How do they act in youth group? Are they seeing fruits of repentance? Those kind of things in a church setting?
  
  Dan Jarms 24:52
  That's really good. Our story with all three of our kids is, since I was lead pastor, when all of my kids got. Baptized, you know, in the process and course of parenting. Here, as a pastor in the church, I always had them do this process with another pastor or elder. So Corey Milliken, Isaiah Mackler, you know, those were the youth guys at the time. Nathan Thiry, for Brenna, like they were the ones who did the interview, because I wanted to remove the bias that is potential. And usually it went against my kids like we didn't always think enough of our kids like we could have thought better of them, but we always had somebody else do that, and so I would recommend just get somebody else to come in on that, two other people, Joe's here to kind of represent families, how to help them. I think of other people who are coming in the church, if you haven't been baptized, and you know you should be, or maybe you were baptized as a baby now you're really a believer, just reach out to me, any of the elders, any of the pastors. So I'd like to talk about baptism. And if you are newer in your faith, we would love to talk to you about that. The most common thing we see in the New Testament is that somebody believed and very soon they were baptized. So the idea that it should take years, it shouldn't take years, but it might not take a week, but it shouldn't take years, so don't wait around for that opportunity to obey. Reach out to one of us. And then the other thing is, if you're a growth group leader and you're charged to disciple the people in your group, and you find out that somebody's not been baptized, just offer to reach out with them. Hey, what if we got together with so and so and talk, and I've done that. My growth group leader had a gal in our group, and can we set up an appointment where you talk to my growth group leader, and if she was ready, she was ready to count the cost. It was a really sweet process. So growth group leaders also think about talking to us. We would love to, love to do that and help you. Last thing, Joe, you've got a little pile of resources that are really helpful. We keep most of these in the little bookstore that we have. So give us a handful of those. The
  
  Joe Swanson 27:21
  first point I'd like to bring people to is we have a discipleship toolbox that's on the faith bible church website under Resources right there on the top tab. And if you click in the search bar salvation, it gives a great article on how to know if you are a Christian. There's also, stop asking Jesus into your heart. By JD Greer, there's a teen edition that is really effective. Nine marks has a quick read that's titled, am I a Christian? And we've got a booklet like you were saying there at the bookstore, understanding baptism. It's part of their church Basics series.
  
  Dan Jarms 28:03
  It can seem, for some people, it can seem a lot like it could seem heavy for them, if we're pressing a question like, are you really saved? And I think a person can be put on the spot because they're they're thinking they've got to prove to the questioner that they're really saved. That's not our heart. No, we're not trying to. You don't have to answer to me if you're saved. I would want to know if I didn't have eternal life. So it's it's good to be asked questions to make sure I was trusting in Jesus alone, not myself, that I was not falling prey to some easy believe ism. You know where in Matthew seven, I think it's 22 through 24 says Jesus says, you know, many will say, Lord, Lord. And I will say, Depart from me. I never knew you. And they did all kinds of miraculous works, but they really weren't followers. So what we want you to do is we want you to be confident in what you know about the gospel. We want your kids, if you're the mom and dad, to be confident. We want them to have genuine assurance of their salvation. Well, in order to have genuine assurance, you need to have a proper understanding of the gospel, and you need to have a life that demonstrates being filled with the Spirit, not perfectly, but progressively and and we want to encourage you. So these resources are really helpful for that. They help a person who is wondering where they're at, and they help a person who's got false confidence too. Lots of people think they're going to heaven because they're really nice, and they've done a few nice things, Jesus will still say to them at the at the end, Depart from me. I never knew you, because it's not being nice and it's not doing enough good works, it's trusting in Him alone for salvation. You have any other thoughts? Joe, yeah,
  
  Joe Swanson 29:58
  I just. Think you know talking to dads out there, I think having these conversations are some of the most important conversations that you can have with your kid. And you might not feel completely equipped, or it might be a difficult thing. I just would encourage you to just step in and lean into having hard conversations. Work out your salvation with fear and trembling, have those conversations with your kids, because it's really important that you do. Thank
  
  Dan Jarms 30:27
  you, Joe, for the time. Thanks for the work you put into this and shepherding our families. You bet you

Dan Jarms

Dr. Dan Jarms is teaching pastor and team leader at Faith Bible Church in Spokane Washington, as well as associate dean at The Master's Seminary in Spokane. He has been married for over 30 years to Linda, and has three adult children. He earned his B.A. in English at the Master’s College, B.Ed. at Eastern Washington University, M.Div and D.Min in Expository Preaching at The Master’s Seminary. His other interests include NCAA basketball, woodworking, and art.

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Joe Swanson

Joe is director of Children's Ministry at Faith. He also supports and disciples missionaries and those training for missions.

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